Tuesday, 3/13/12, Public Square


Filed under The Public Square

53 responses to “Tuesday, 3/13/12, Public Square

  1. R.D. Liebst

    Well they are discussing whether Mitt’s religion will be a hindrance in the election? In such a religiously charged atmosphere. With the hard core Christians playing such a part in the Republican party I would say it has to. Mormons are not considered a Christian faith in fact they have less a standing then Catholics within the hard core.

    That whole thing about the differing view of just who Jesus Christ is, son of God or just a prophet of God?
    I had not heard it so expressed like it use to be and with the differing sects within the Christian faith.
    I have not been hanging like I use to with the hard core since my best friend moved so far away and I am no long invited to come with him to those meetings and the like.

    But I doubt that things have changed all that much, that is the problem with being hard core is that there is no room for change.

    • I haven’t gotten the impression that the Mormons believe Jesus Christ is anything less than the Son of God. However, they do seem to want to place Joseph Smith at the left hand of God. 😉

      • I’ve always thought that it was the Evangelical Fundamental Christians (Southern Baptists are usually the culprits) are the ones that view Mormonism as a cult.

        But – hey – how many different sects of Baptists do we see? Is it even possible to have a bunch of Baptists in the same room without somebody throwing the first punch over something that is – in theory – just that – a theory or belief.

        Is there any real hard evidence that Jesus was the Son of God – where was the DNA test?

        Bottom line – religion is man-made but faith is spiritual. Never confuse the two because religion is some screwed-up B.S.

      • But I was shocked to learn that Mormons practice that Baptism of the Dead. I had not known that until it came out over Romney’s religion.

        But I do have to wonder – I read an article that the Mormons baptized Hitler by this practice of Baptism of the Dead. So, in order to go to Heaven, Mormons believe that your name has to be in their Baptism Book – correct?

        So why the Hell would Hitler (of all people) be welcomed into Heaven?

        That is what I mean about religion being man-made – and some very screwed up B.S.

      • indy, doesn’t baptism cleanse the person of all sins?

        That Baptism of the Dead is a strange thing, but like all religions and denominations of religions, they probably have a reason that they feel justifies it. I’m not saying it’s right, but since I don’t know all the details, I can’t say it’s wrong.

      • No matter what baptism means to them, they aren’t asking the person or even the person’s family if this what they choose. That makes it wrong to me.

      • As I understand it – Mormons baptize the dead because no one can enter Heaven unless their name is in their book.

        So, it might be cleasning of one’s sin – but if Hitler himself has not consented to the cleansing, how can his sins be cleansed?

        I was taught that baptism means an outward sign that you are being cleansed from your sinful human body and made clean through Jesus’ redemption. But one has to first repent of your sins and accept the cleansing through the gift of Jesus’ sacrifice of dying on the cross for men.

        I’m like you – all religions have their own version of beliefs – but as I understand it – if Hitler’s name is in that baptism book, then I assume Hitler is is Heaven.

        Which is rather bafffling to me – since I doubt if Hitler confessed his sins before dying??

        And fnord is correct – IMHO – these baptism of the dead rituals are being done without the consent of the families in alot of cases . That is wrong – IMHO – and I also think that is quite arrogant of the Mormons to put themselves into that spot of authority.

  2. R.D. Liebst

    What I had always heard was that once dead the chance is over to be saved.
    And most of the churches I have attended have been Southern Baptist.
    Grandma and mom were so and my best friend too until he started going the funny way and now he attends Fox’s cult.

    • R.D. Liebst

      OK it was suppose to be fundy not funny way there is nothing I found funny about Terry Fox….

    • I was in the Fundamental Baptists and that was always what was taught – that you only had the chance to accept Jesus as your Savior while you’re alive – otherwise, you best be wearing a fireproof suit when you die.

      But I always thought the Catholics had some sort of purgatory process in which families of deceased can pay money to get a loved one out of purgatory?

      Since I’m not Catholic, I don’t know. But I grew up with alot of Catholics and the most vivid thing I remember is – those people loved to go to the bars and drink. All of the taverns were owned by Catholics.

      About 20 years ago, I worked for a Catholic man who proudly boasted that it was convenient to have his church give their approval of his favorite past time – getting drunk. I thought he was just joking – but he wasn’t.

      Of course, this man was also getting one of those annulments from his first wife to marry his new younger trophy model.

      And this man had 4 kids by his first wife.

      That is another religious thing that I will NEVER understand….

      • But I always thought the Catholics had some sort of purgatory process in which families of deceased can pay money to get a loved one out of purgatory?

        Supposedly prayer was to do that. I never understood it. Then again, perhaps some did pay, but I don’t know how anyone would know where someone went. Nothing more than a way to get more money from people, I’m sure.

        And unbaptised babies went to Limbo. To avoid this, in the Catholic Church, babies are baptized shortly after birth at their christening, which supposedly wipes out the original sin of Adam and Eve.

        Does anyone know how the Baptism of the Dead is performed? Are they digging up graves to do this? If not, what difference does it make? You get to follow your faith, they should get to follow theirs…and without ridicule. Rituals are created for many reasons, one being a way for people to feel like they are a part of something. Another is to separate them from others who are not of their faith. EVERY church and religion has their beliefs and religions. Accept them or move on.

      • prairie pond

        I’m pretty much only familiar with Lutherans, having been “dipped in” the catechism (as opposed to being sprayed with it). My understanding is that baptism is the “born again” ritual. It is literally, in the Lutheran faith, the regeneration sacrament in which the baptized become born again in the name of the father, son and holy spirit.

        To your point, Wicked, baptism is also considered the time when the soul enters grace. The grace is earned by faith alone, not by deeds. It is through grace that all sins are forgiven. I believe this was the bone of contention in the Reformation. Martin Luther did not believe anyone needed to pay indulgences to Rome in order to receive grace. Rome believed that, um, not so much. Gotta keep those buck rolling in, no? It was the payment of indulgence that got pre-reformation catholics to grace. Now, I think Rome believes what the Lutherans do, that grace is given by faith alone. What the mormons believe, I have no freakin’ clue.

        Catholics, according to Wiki, believe in baptism by water, baptism by declaration or desire, and baptism by blood or martyrdom.


        Also to your point about limbo, I knew a woman who was a nurse at our local hospital for something like 40 years. She secretly baptized babies, using saliva if no water was nearby, using her thumb and the moisture to make the sign of the cross on their little foreheads, and silently saying the words “I baptize thee in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost.”

        She could not stand the thought of any baby going to limbo because they were not baptized. She was catholic, and if any of the lutherans in this town knew their kids were baptized as catholics, they would have had a heart attack. In later years, she said she only did this to the infants that were in danger of not living long enough to receive the sacrament, but knowing her, I think she did it to all babies. She meant well, and was not trying to convert or subvert anyone’s religious choices. She was a good woman. But still, it was presumptuous at best and deceptive at worst, no matter how good her intentions.

        Believe me, I laughed my ass off when her daughter, one of my hell raising buddies in high school, told me about this. I couldn’t help but laugh at all the hissy fits that would have been had if anyone had known.

      • prairie pond

        Regarding mormon baptizm by proxy…


        Gotta love Wiki!

      • prairie pond

        From the Wiki link

        “The LDS Church holds that deceased persons who have not accepted or had the opportunity to accept the gospel of Christ in this life will have the opportunity to accept the gospel in the afterlife. As all must follow Jesus Christ, they must also receive all the ordinances that a living person is expected to receive, including baptism. For this reason, members of the LDS Church are encouraged to research their genealogy. This research is then used as the basis for church performing temple ordinances for as many deceased persons as possible. As a part of these efforts, Mormons have performed temple ordinances on behalf of a number of high profile people. Of particular interest are: the Founding Fathers of the U.S., Presidents of the U.S., Pope John Paul II, John Wesley, Christopher Columbus, Adolf Hitler,[36] and others.[citation needed]”

        I had no idea that was the mormon connection to their obsession with geneology.

      • R.D. Liebst

        Only my immediate family are not Catholics with my family name and it is my understand that all go to purgatory and have to be prayed out by family and friends. But that subject has been so long since it was brought up that I can not swear to that being the case.

        The rest are God forsaken heaths or Southern Baptists which come to think of it there may not be that much differences between.

    • Jesus turned water to wine, therefore fermented drinks are okay. That includes not only wine, but beer and other alcohol.

      Yes, I agree that many Catholics are heavy drinkers. But not all are.

      • prairie pond

        HA! When it comes to drinking, the catholics got nuthin’ on the lutherans. For most of us German Lutherans, our first words were “is that beer cold?”

      • Agreed, Prairie. However, there’s nothing quite as inebriated as those in attendance at a Roman Catholic Wedding Dance, especially in either: swmall towns; West of 81; or both (in my experience, of which I have a large supply. Damned meds will prohibit such good times in futuro, but at least I have my very foggy memories).

      • I wasn’t trying to demonize heavy drinkers – but I just found it interesting that this guy I worked for actually used his church’s blessing as a free pass for his drinking.

        BTW – I watched as this same man refused to eat a Beef Taco Salad on Friday when his new girlfriend brought it into the office for his lunch that day. He actually lectured her in front of everyone in the office as to how eating meat on Friday was a sin – but yet when he left work that night, he winked at me and said he was looking forward to his favorite past time – getting drunk.

        I just don’t understand religion…….. Faith in some higher power, some Creator that designed the wondrous universe we live in – that I can believe in. But I cannot believe in some made-up rules and then slap some religious significance to them – that is what I just don’t get.

      • indy, he used his religion as an excuse to do what he wanted to do. Not unlike many others. His weakness just happened to be alcohol. Plenty of others out there.

      • You’re right – Wicked.

        But, as is so often said about religions, the folks that seem to preach the loudest are those who are the worst examples.

        That is what frustrates me about the Religious Right Republicans – like when Franklin Graham and Rick Santorum questioned President Obama being a true Christian.

        Listening to people like these two just make me want to scream that not all Christians feel this way.

        And just like not all Christians are the same – not all Muslims are the same. There are radical members in all religions.

      • 6176, I attended my fair share of those wedding dances, back in the day. (Ask me about my experience with Jim Beam sometime. Ha!) While I didn’t spend those pre-teen, teen, and post-teen days in a Catholic town, there are plenty out in that direction and many Catholic kids in and around the area attended our high school instead of going into Wichita. In fact, it wasn’t very many years ago that we attended the wedding dance of the son of one of my close (Methodist) high school friends. I’m not sure the bride was Catholic, either. Wedding dances have become non-denominational, as has excuses to drink. 🙂

  3. Remember this Freshman Congress Critter from Illinois – the one that always rants and screams about how evil Obama is:

    Karma – she sure knows how to bitch slap…


  4. Grover Norquist has excused Reagan for his 11 tax increases because he didn’t sign the pledge. [eye roll] This Norquist guy has been given soooo much power! You know what they say, “If you give someone power over you, they have it!”

    • When doing research on Santorum when he was a Senator, I learned that Rick was working with Jack Abramhoff (convicted felon lobbyist with infamous fedora), Ralph Reed of Christian Coalition fame AND Grover Norquist.

      Now I wonder what Grover was doing on K Street?????

      I bet no pledges were demanded there – except to get as much lobbyist money as you can into all the ‘right’ pockets.

  5. The Southern Baptist Church I was raised in taught that baptism was symbolic. It wasn’t necessary for salvation but did follow the example set by Jesus and was a public display of the old life being washed away and the beginning of the new life.

    • That’s what I was always taught. But I always wondered why God gave the white men in America the true religion but yet the majority of people born into this world – ie China, Africa, Middle East – were all destined to go to Hell because they did not get to hear the offer of salvation.

      I always wondered why God would leave out the majority of the global population in favor of just the white men?

      Now you see why I never felt like I belonged in that Fundamental Baptist religion – I asked too many damn questions!!!!


      • No questions! If you can’t believe ‘by faith,’ you cannot have eternal life! /sarcasm

      • indy, now you understand why I was politely asked to not come back to Sunday School (Methodist, BTW) when in high school.

        BTW, according to what I learned in my Judaism class at KU, asking such hard questions (well, not those posed by you precisely) makes one a good Jew. Maybe I should begin learning Hebrew….

  6. “Ponzi scheme!” “bankrupt” “liberal conspiracy”

    These are terms you often hear from the Republication party describing the social security program.

    Social security is not part of the budget and doesn’t contribute one nickel to the national debt. Social security is part of a payroll tax, which is 100% solvent until the year 2037, and can pay out over 80% of the benefits until 2085.

    Debunking the Republican lies about Social Security and Ronald Reagan

  7. The Mormons baptized President Obama’s mother the day after he secured enough delegates to get the nomination.

    Now this is what I don’t understand about this Dead Baptism thing – if the family members did not request this – then why would any Mormon feel they had the right or authority to baptize this woman and convert her to Mormonism?

    I don’t want to beat a dead horse – and when I had to leave the discussion earlier – I was surprised and rather glad to see how many of us joined in this discussion and we all posted our thoughts and comments.

    If I offended anyone by my comments or questions, I did not mean to – because I am really just trying to find out how other religions believe.

    But I must say – our little blog had our discussion about religion and the various aspects of several different ones and I don’t think anyone got angry or got so mad as to be able to spit out fire and brimstone – did they?

    I believe we are all entitled to our own choice of religion and I am glad to be a part of this blog group that can talk about religion and politics and not become the Hatfields and McCoys if we do not see things in exactly the same way.


    • prairie pond

      No, Indy, we didn’t get mad or huff off the blog. That’s why I blog here and not anywhere else. We are looking for information and fact, not spin. And if anyone finds out later we posted spin, we shrug and change our minds.

      It’s called being a reasonable, thinking adult.

      I’d never go back to my ex, but I’d damn sure go back to that night!

      • I don’t have an ex (well, does an ex-religion count?)

        And I’d never go back to being a fundamental Baptist – and I’m sure the fundies don’t want me back……..LOL

    • indy, if I gave you the impression I was upset, I wasn’t, in spite of what might have appeared to be my terse answers. I was multi-tasking all day and don’t always juggle well.

      • No, I did not get the impression you were upset – nor anyone else, for that matter.

        But when I get to talking about religion – I always tend to go overboard because my past experiences. And I don’t want anyone to think I am denouncing anyone’s faith – but I am really just not understanding the logic behind some of these things.

        And like I said before – I ask too many damn questions – and as 6176 commented about his experience with the Sunday School – sometimes that gets me into hot water.

  8. prairie pond

    And, BTW 617, all I can say is “indeed” about the wedding dances. I think the Volga German lutherans and catholics ran about neck and neck for wildness. At my wedding supper in 1976, we fed 300 people and right before the dance, my Dad put a gallon of whiskey on every big table. No kidding.

    I’d never go back to my ex, but I’d damn sure go back to that night!

    • I was married in 1976 also – December 23rd to be exact. We had planned a Valentines Day wedding but we figured up our income taxes – and we saved a buttload of money if we married before year’s end – so that’s when the date got moved up.

      Want a good laugh? Since my husband was a Southern Baptist Preacher and I was a fundamental Baptist girl – both churches were feuding (of course). When we moved the wedding up – boy did those gossiping tongues get to wagging. There was even a pool going on as to when the baby would pop out.

      I am not kidding……….I told my husband I was tempted to put a pillow under my dresses just to fake these people out. I even thought about first putting in a small pillow one month, then putting in an extra large pillow the next month, and then not wearing any pillow the next month just to make these gossiping tongues wag so fast they would spin right out of their crooked mouths.

      I was rather mean-spirited – huh? Now that’s what I mean about religion making Hatfields and McCoys out of people.

      It was pure hell………

      • Speaking of Hell on Earth – I have an uncle that believed that our life on Earth was Hell.

        And he had the wife to prove that the Devil was indeed alive and well.

      • One last thought – when my husband and I returned to the parsonage a few days after we were married, a knock was heard at our back door.

        We had a very small wedding in a town an hour drive away from our home and since my immediate family refused to come to the wedding (my uncle gave me away and my aunt was my matron of honor), I looked through the curtain to see who was at our door.

        To our surprise – it was the town’s ‘prostitute’ (this woman’s husband used to sell her to any man in the tavern that had $10 in their hand. If she refused to do as the husband told her, she knew she would get beaten). That is what it was like for some women even back in the 60’s and 70’s. Thank God, that man was killed by a drunk driver – Karma, I reckon.

        Anyway – this woman was the ONLY person in that entire town that came to our house and congratulated us on getting married. I’ll never forget this kind and sweet woman’s words as tears filled her eyes when she told us how happy she was for us and to not pay any attention to the gossiping hens. This woman was used to be the butt of the gossiping hens’ jokes – but I guess the joke was on the old hens – because who do you think were the men with the $10 in their hand at the tavern?

        I’ve often thought about visit from this woman. The one woman in that entire town that nobody gave a second thought about was the only person that had the compassion and Christian love to come give us her support.

        My husband was the pastor in that church for the next 6 months and then we finally had our fill of the constant hatred/division between the two churches and we left.

        We lost our faith in churches – but we never lost our faith in our God. That’s why I often say that religion is man-made but Faith is spiritual. Never confuse the two because religion is some screwed-up B.S.

    • That makes three of us married in 1976. After the wedding, I went to work at the photography studio that took our wedding pictures. I can personally attest to the high number of weddings in the last half of that year. Two weekends were extremely popular: August 7 & 14. Our wedding photographers were doing double and triple duty that day. I don’t ever remember anything like it in the 3 1/2 years I worked there. My Texas friend and I were married a day apart in 1976. We didn’t meet until the late ’90s and thought it pretty funny that we almost shared the same wedding day.

      • Ah, 1976 – Jimmy Carter was elected president and if we had listened to him, we might not beso dependent on oil today – huh?

        Then we could tell these Middle East countries that no need to go to war with us – all you have is sand and oil – and we don’t need your damn oil and we really don’t need any sand – so take a hike.’

        But, alas, Reagan got in the White House in 1980 and took down all those solar panels.

        And the rest – as the saying goes – is history…..(or just a bad nightmare?)

  9. prairie pond

    Oops, sorry the last line was in both posts. I broke them up into two, but as you can see, my cutting and pasting skills suck.

  10. Jus surfing the Internet and came upon this article about adult kids moving back in with Mom and Dad.

    Quite interesting reading…

    I remember my grandparents telling stories of how their multi-generational families lived in the same house. I can also remember how my own childhood house was a 3-bedroom house with one-car garage. We did not have a dishwasher until I was in high school. Hell, isn’t that why there were two girls born into that family – to be the dishwashers? LMAO

    But as I drive through newer neighborhoods, the houses are so huge with 3 or 4 car garages. I often wonder how many people live in that family.

    My husband and I watch the House Hunters television show and soemtimes these young couples are walkign through these beautiful houses and they are talking about how everything in the kitchen or bathroom needs to be gutted because they are not updated enough for them.

    And I’m looking at my husband going – Damn, remember that little 2-bedroom house we started out in with one tiny bathroom and we had to take the laundry out to the laundromat every week?

    Are Americans used to have excessive housing and comforts and since the economy has been so bad in the past few years that we are seeing a sense of -comeuppance – that is due a society that is too used to the finer things in life?

    I dont’ know….the world has changed alot since my childhood – and definitely changed since my grandparents’ time. Maybe Americans need a good dose of reality?


    • My father’s grandparents lived with his family until they both died. My father had 3 brothers and 1 sister. So there were 7 in his family + 2 grandparents = 9 people in a small 4-bedroom house with one bathroom.

      I wonder how many of the average Americans today would live with 9 people in a 4-bedroom house with one bathroom to share?

      I dare to guess – not many…

      • prairie pond

        Indy, my grandfather built the house I live in. Less than 800sq ft. at that time, no running water or electricity. No bathroom but the outhouse.

        They raised six kids and took in a couple of kids when my grandmother’s sister died with little ones. Cramped quarters to say the least. And my great grandfather lived with them after his wife died. Of course by then, some of the kids had moved out and on.

        On my Mom’s side of the family, the newly weds lived with the parents and unmarried kids until they could afford their own place. And when her mom couldn’t live alone anymore, she rotated living with her adult children.

        It was all pretty common to do multi-generational living. The farmers here needed adult sons to continue to help with the farm. Women went to live with their husband’s families and helped with the work, too.

        Like you said, now we think we are really deprived with one bathroom and no laundry. I think HGTV has given a lot of people unreasonable expectations. But then, you have to remember my current carpet was installed when Jimmy Carter was president, and it’s still in good shape. Ask fnord! So I may not be the best judge of “expectations.” I’m just happy to have a paid off roof over my head!

      • Hey – nothing wrong with carpet from the Jimmy Carter Days Collection – LOL

        When we bought our current house, it was built in 1964. The minute we walked in, I felt like I was back in the 60’s – not much had been changed. The carpet was a little newer – maybe early 70’s – but the lighting fixtures, floor plan were basically from the 60’s.

        I remember the realtor starting her spiel about – this house is dated but you could do this………..yada, yada and more yada.

        I looked at her and said – this is exactly what we were looking for because it feels like a home – not just some house.

        Sometimes I think the attitude towards our homes has changed also. I remember a time when a family bought a house, raised their family and the folks retired inthe same house. Remember the old mortgage-burning parties?

        Who does that anymore? Houses today are treated like a game on a chess board – something to be bought and sold . But a HOME is something that should be cherished and a place to make memories.

        Damn,…..I am starting to sound like my grandpa………Am I really getting that old?

  11. I love PrairiePonds house! I think I could sit at her kitchen table for many long happy hours! The view is unbelievable! ‘Course I could be prejudiced by the memories of the magic that was happening nearby at her stove! 🙂

    When I was growing up all my Mother’s family gathered at my Grandmas house at least once a year. It was a three room house — living room, kitchen, bedroom. To this day I’ve never had a better meal than those my Grandma, Mother and Aunts whipped up in that tiny kitchen. Some of my Mom’s siblings lived nearby and when it came time for bed they ‘slept’ some of the company from farther away. My cousins and I all stayed at Grandmas! We made big pallets. Back then we didn’t need a bed per person, and if we had a bed we had a lot of people in it. Never once did the words ‘crowded’ or ‘inconvenient’ come to mind.

    Remember before air conditioning when we were all outside in the evenings when it was warm. I was a city kid. The neighbors all knew one another and talking to each other was our entertainment.

    We had more time it seems to me. Could it be because we weren’t manicuring acreages and maintaining rooms full of stuff? Houses were much more utilitarian. But those utilitarian houses were always welcoming!