Friday, 4/22/11, Public Square



Filed under The Public Square

79 responses to “Friday, 4/22/11, Public Square

  1. indypendent

    Below is what I found on the Wikipedia site in a listing of political positions of John McCain.

    When I turned on the television news this morning, the first thing I saw was the photo op of John McCain in Libya calling the rebels ‘his heroes’.


    I wonder how can this man even pretend to be on the side of the Libyan people when just in a few short years ago, McCain, Lierbman and Graham were all talking to Gaddafi (the leader these rebels are currently fighting) and telling Gaddafi that they want to help him secure US war equipment.

    God, how can these politicians even look at themselves in the mirror?

    BTW – Remember when George W. Bush rewarded Libya in 2005 by lifting those sanctions permanently because Gaddafi was being our golden haired boy again?

    From Wikipedia:
    LibyaOn August 14, 2009, McCain, along with Senators Joe Lieberman and Lindsey Graham, met with Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in Tripoli “to talk . . . about a transfer of American military equipment.”[160] At the meeting, Gaddafi’s son Muatassim “emphasized Libya’s interest in the purchase of U.S. lethal and non-lethal military equipment,” and McCain “assured Muatassim that the United States wanted to provide Libya with the equipment it needs.”[160] Following the meeting, McCain sent out a tweet declaring that he had spent “an interesting evening with an interesting man.”[160] A year and a half later, during the 2011 Libyan uprising, McCain called for the removal of Gaddafi from power, due to Gaddafi having “‘American blood on his hands’ from the 1988 Lockerbie bombing.”

    • indypendent

      One interesting note – If Gaddafi had American blood on his hands from the 1988 Lockerbie bombing – then why was McCain and Gang talking about giving Gaddafi the US military equipment they need?

      Didn’t the year 1988 come several years prior to the year 2009?

  2. indypendent

    I heard an interesting twist on this John Ensign resignation this morning.

    This was from a reporter in Las Vegas and he was talking about Doug Hampton (the former Ensign staffer whose wife was the one John Ensign had the affair with) recently being indicted on lobbying charges.

    Remember when the affair became public knowledge and Ensign let both the mistress and her husband go but then Sen. Ensign lined up a lobbyist job for Doug Hampton. Or so the story goes…… And that is for the jury to decide if and when Hampton’s case goes to trial.

    Well – anyway – this reporter made the remark that when Doug Hampton’s case comes to trial – you can bet Ensign’s name will be brought up repeatedly.
    So this entire saga will not end……..

    But let’s not forget – these are the Evangelical Christians doing all this nonsense – and they have superior family values -….LMAO

    • indypendent

      And if you don’t beleive me these Evangelical Christians have superior family values – ask their fellow Christians at C-Street.

      Ooops, several of them have also had their own mistress problems . Maybe we should just skip asking that bunch to display family values.

      One interesting note – if it had not been for Gov Mark Sanford mentioning the C-Street Christian Gang when his own affair became public knowledge – just think, John Ensign’s affair would have probably died down in the daily news.

      But when Sanford talked about the C-Street Gang – then the spotlight got shown on to that group and then all the cockroaches began to scatter.

      Those who yell the loudest about how superior their family and moral values are usually end up being the biggest heathens on the planet.

      When will these hypocrits learn?

  3. Freebird1971

    Earth Day pales in comparaison to what this day means to me and a lot of others.

    • Are you willing to share what this day means to you and all those others?

      I like thinking about our home and for the past few years I’ve easily found a way I can contribute to making it a better place. I throw away too much that should be recycled. I can do better! I want to do my part whether it’s insignificant or not.

      • Freebird1971

        If I have to expalin what Good Friday means you wouldn’t understand what it means to me

      • I won’t attempt to knock that chip off your shoulder.

      • wicked

        fnord, I started with little steps. I need bigger ones, but change isn’t always easy, and I admit to being lazy.

        My first step was plastic shopping bags that reproduce in my kitchen and the trunk of my car. Yes, I sometimes recycle them by using them as trashcan liners, but even that didn’t seem very green to me. Now I take them to the recycle center whenever I notice they’re starting to multiply again.

        Second step: All those cardboard boxes that food comes packaged in. From cereal boxes to TV dinner boxes, they quickly add up and take up a lot of room in my trash. I asked myself why, checked the list I printed from the recycle website, and started flattening them.

        Third step…which actually went along with the first step…is office paper. Imagine how much I generate. I can go through a ream of paper in a little over a week, and have been printing on both sides when I can get it to work without screwing up.

        Fourth step: Corragated cardboard boxes. It started with the enormous box my treadmill came in and will continue.

        Next step: Plastic bottles

  4. Freebird1971

    In fact Earth Day is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things

  5. indypendent

    Alot of things happened on this day.

    For one – the Deepwater Horizon oil rig sunk to the bottom of the ocean from the blowout two days earlier.

    How about that for celebrating Earth Day?

    • Freebird1971

      Sorry if I offended by bringing up the fact it is Good Friday,with that said the oil spill still pales in comparison to the meaning of this day.

      • It is Good Friday! A day many people of the world observe in reverent peaceful reflection. I hope your day is full of beauty, love and hope. Do you observe this day in a particular way, or just prayerfully remembering the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ and its meaning?

      • indypendent

        You did not offend me – why did you take it that way?

        You brought up Earth Day and I just happened to have just read as to how this is the day the infamous BP oil rig sunk after the blowout 2 days prior.

    • Freebird1971

      I don’t observe Earth Day

      • indypendent

        Neither do I – so what’s your point?

        As for Good Friday – that is a holiday if you happen to believe that way.

        But I don’t see too many religious people actually living their faith nowadays. I see alot of flowery prayers and beautiful songs being sung – but Jesus was not into all that showboating. He was too busy living and ministering to those folks who were downtrodden and outcasts of society.

      • wicked

        I don’t observe Good Friday. What’s your point, Freebird?

  6. Freebird1971

    Mt philosophy is “Wear the world like a loose garment”

    • indypendent

      My philosophy is – one can learn from different religions if one would only open their eyes and close their mouth.

  7. Freebird1971

    Hope everyone has a great day and reflects on the true meaning of it.

  8. “While I know myself as a creation of God, I am also obligated to realize and remember that everyone else and everything else are also God’s creation.” — Maya Angelou

  9. indypendent

    Passover was celebrated this week also – and I am sure the Jewish people find this day to be just as holy as Christians find Good Friday.

    That’s the beauty of America and the Founding Fathers’ wise inclusion of the guaranteed right for us to have freedom of religion.

  10. indypendent

    Freebird – where did you first bring up that this is Good Friday?

    This is what you first posted: Earth Day pales in comparaison to what this day means to me and a lot of others

    Excuse me, but where is Good Friday mentioned?

    Perhaps if you had elaborated and stated exactly what day you were talking about – then all this miscommuncation would have never happened?

    Since the topic threader was Earth Day – I was thinking along that line.

  11. indypendent

    Speaking of Earth Day – I worked for two doctors and one of them was an absolute believer in celebrating Earth Day.

    We even got the day off but, of cousrse, we were all invited to the Earth Day picnic at his house (so did I really get the day off?).

    Anyway – this doctor’s wife had a cookout – she used styrofoam plates and drinking cups to serve the lunch.

    Hmmm,……isn’t styrofoam the type of disposable plates and cups that fill all these landfills up and never breaks down?

    What’s the good of celebrating Earth Day and using styrofoam plates and cups?

    • I’ve found this to be quite the conundrum, indy. It probably would have been more proper to have used paper plates and cups that could have been composted or recycle (though I believe Styrofoam can be recycled). A few years back my family rented a Mennonite camp facility for a family reunion. One of the stipulations was that we wouldn’t use ANY disposables. Their kitchen was fully stocked with all the plates, cups, dinnerware, etc… and a dishwasher to boot. But my question is: Isn’t this a trade-off? Isn’t water conservation an issue, too?

      • indypendent

        I can see your point – especially the dishwasher and using all that water.

        This picnic was about 15 years ago and I remembered hearing styrofoam was the worst possible disposable things to use as far as recycling goes.

        Maybe the styrofoam has been made better since that time?

        I just thought the use of such sytrofoam plates and cups ran against the entire them of the picnic. But he was the doctor – so nobody said anything to him.

  12. indypendent

    Since Good Friday was brought up in our discussion, I would like to share a little story.

    I was recently told that since we don’t celebrate Easter, that it did not matter what day I had my family dinner to accommodate another in-law family member’s plans for Sunday.

    Excuse me, while it is true I do not go to a particular church, I am a Christian believer and my family does celebrate Easter.

    But that is not really what bothered me about this specific in-law family member saying what she said.

    What bothers me is this woman is on the thrid attempt of having her Catholic priest and her husband trying to convince his first wife to fill out the paperwork necessary to annul their 20-year marriage which produced 4 kids in order for the new trophy wife and this guy to become Catholics in good standing.

    WTF????? bottom line – this new trophy wife (who the guy married within a few months of the divorce) has the nerve to ask the first wife to fill out paperwork in order to make herself a good-standing Christian?

    The kicker is – during the entire 20-year-marriage the guy and the first wife were NOT Catholics.

    Just how much arrogance does it take for people to expect other people to bow down to their wishes for this nonsense?

    Oh, and let’s not forget – this trophy wife and the guy will be front and center in the first pew come Easter Sunday morning ‘celebrating’ . But I have to move my family dinner to Saturday becaus these two are just too holy to be told they have to rearrange their day in order to see the guy’s kids. Give me a frickin break….

    • indypendent

      Now that my rant is over – I am really trying to be tolerant today and every day – even for those who are arrogantly intolerant.

      In fact, I am having Easter family dinnner on Saturday – so the precious holy ones can keep up their pretense. (oh, oh – did I come short of that tolerance thing just now? )

      fnord wrote: I hope there is tolerance abounding today and every day.

      • Do you think God falls for this ‘trick’ of the church doctrine whereby a marriage of duration that produced children is annulled? Do you have to annual the children too, or do they become illegitimate in the eyes of the church since they were born out of wedlock? I’m sure glad I don’t understand any of this stupidity!

      • indypendent

        That is what bothers me the most when I heard this ridiculous story (but since then, I’ve found out that several of my co-workers have done the same thing).

        For being a religion that professes to value the sanctity of life – what does it tell those children born to that annulled marriage that the marriage never happened?

        But you what I really want to say to the new wife? Don’t be playing footsies with a married man and then marry him and then expect the first wife to give you her blessing.

        That is just arrogance – and where in the Bible did it ever say Jesus was an arrogant person?

      • indypendent

        I feel sorry for the first wife – and she is a very nice person and was even feeling guilty for thinking of telling the priest the first two times to ‘shove it’.

        I told her that just because they wear clothes that they deem ‘holy’ does not make it true.

  13. wicked

    Simply by luck of the calendar (and the first full moon following the Spring Equinox, which is a Pagan holiday), Earth Day and Good Friday are sharing the day.

    Why can’t we all get along?

  14. indypendent

    Exactly why would I want to ‘celebrate’ Good Friday? The real celebration was on the day Jesus arose from the dead because that is what real Christianity teaches – that God gaves his Son so that man could overcome death and have eternal life.

    Instead of celebrating Good Friday – one should really be mindful of the fact that this is the day that Jesus was crucified – hardly a day to celebrate.

    But I believe all religions have their own version of the salvation message – and just because one does or does not ‘celebrate’ Good Friday does not make them any less a fellow human being on this planet.

  15. indypendent

    wicked – I read your listing of what you do to help recycle and we try to do the same things.

    One change that happened to us was by moving to Bel Aire and signing up for city trash service – we are charged $4 each month for recycling fee (whether we recycle or not). The trash company gave us two trash carts – a green one for regular trash and a beige one for recycables.

    The recycle bin is picked up every other week – as opposed to the regular trash is picked up weekly.

    Honestly, just having that second recycle bin has helped us to be mindful that we can and should recycle. Just having the means to recycle without having to take it somewhere else to dump it has helped me to be more consistent with my recycling. Some people have complained about being charged the $4 monthly fee if they do not recycle – but I don’t mind paying another $4 a month if it will help in the long term.

    • wicked

      My guess is the $4 is used partly to pay the extra for sorting all those recyclables. I could get recycling added to my trash pick-up, but to be honest, I’m cheap and I enjoy the good feeling I get after taking my stuff to the center. I go when I have a good-sized load, so it’s up to me as to when. Besides, it’s not all that far from where I live, so it doesn’t take long, and the people there are very helpful. I saw several young people helping and suspect they’re volunteers.

      I don’t think it matters which way one chooses, it all comes down to the keeping earth just a little cleaner. I tell myself that every little bit helps.

      Here’s a link to the list of what they do (and don’t) take at the center.

      • indypendent

        I agree that which ever way people find to reycle is a good thing.

        Unfortunately, I have run into some people who think Americans should not have to recycle – that somehow we are entitled to have the best, use the best, and not replenish.

        We did not know about the recycling fee that Bel Aire charges before we signed up – and there is the option of having another trash carrier do your trash pickup – but like I said, I don’t mind paying the extra $4 monthly.

        And the fact that I can do it from my home and they provide the trash cart, that helps me to not have to keep going to the recycling center. Especially now since I have the 6-mo-old grandson to take care of during the week.

        Taking a baby and a 5-yr-old anywhere in the car is an adventure for this old grandma. I must be getting old…..LOL

  16. freedomwriter

    If ultimately we all originated from the same place and we all return to the same place when we die, then we are all the same whether or not we have similar beliefs. No religious belief is superior to another. Non-believers and believers all exist in similar form. Even though various religions purport that theirs is the one true way to believe, that view seems too limited to encompass the infinite power that each of these religions describes. Is it not possible that this infinite power, whatever you may understand that to be, has the ability to encompass all belief systems. If we were all created or originated from this infinite source, then we and our varying beliefs are all constructs of this original infinite creator. It doesn’t matter whether you or I conceive it to be God or energy or even nothing-ness. Perhaps all belief systems are a part of the grand scheme of things!

    I wish all of you Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddists, atheists, agnostics, etc. a great and love filled weekend.

    • indypendent

      Very beautifully written. I am Christian by choice but I also believe that God, in whatever form you perceive that entity to be, is greater than all this pettiness of man-made religions.

      For what good is your religion if it simply divides people into Us and Them?

      And if one does research on the world religions – there are remarkable similarities between them.

      • Freebird1971

        Exactly why I do not belong to organized religion,my God is God as I am able to understand him

  17. freedomwriter

    Oh, and hooray for Earth Day! Recycling is good for Mother Earth! I heard a news story on KMUW this morning about an e-waste recycler in town. He used to send his old computers to others thinking it was being recycled, but found out it was just carted off to Oklahoma and dumped. He decided to do something about it and now has this e-waste company here in town and he makes sure it gets recycled! Wish I’d gotten the name of the company, because I appreciate his conscientiousness and his ingenuity.

  18. Thunderchild

    “In fact Earth Day is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things”

    Well, that is a matter of opinion, isn’t it? I think a day to commemorate and have reverence for the planet that gives us our very existence and remind ourselves to be good stewards of it is the LEAST we could do.

    YOUR observance of this day is based in ancient pagan respect for nature and the planet. Your church just co-opted the occasion, just as they did the Winter Solstice. The observance of the date is STILL tied to something to do with the Moon. IF a guy had really died on a cross and come back to life, which sure does not happen every day, you would THINK it could be nailed down to a specific date. Rome was pretty serious about making sure that people they crucified stayed dead. Had they been thwarted, even once, there would seem to be some sort of official record.
    There isn’t.

    • Freebird1971

      I happen to disagree with you. A lot of folks a lot smarter than you or I have tried to disprove the Resurrection and no one has been able to do it

    • WSClark

      Actually, Biblical scholars have pinpointed the day and year quite recently. Whether you believe it or not is a matter of personal faith. I am not a Christian, but I respect those that follow the faith, as I do for anyone that follows any faith or chooses to be an atheist. One’s faith or lack of it is not a reason to condemn anyone.

      For those of you interested, it is now thought that the Last Supper was on Wednesday, followed by the betrayal that evening. The trial before the Jewish leaders was Thursday and the final audience before Pontius Pilate on early on April 3, 33 AD, followed by the crucifixion. That would mean, if Jesus did rise from the dead, the first Easter would have been April 5th.

      Further, there is historical documentation for the existence of Jesus and for Pilate.

      As I said, I am not a Christian, but I respect those that are. We should all do the same.

  19. Freebird1971

    “In fact Earth Day is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things”

    Well, that is a matter of opinion, isn’t it?

    Sure is

  20. Thunderchild

    “have tried to disprove the Resurrection ”

    Outlandish claims require extraordinary proof that they DID happen, not proof that they didn’t. That would be self evident.

    • Freebird1971

      It is self evident to millions of people. You might as well give it up, your attacks and rants against those that believe in God and His Son have no effect,other than feeling sorry for you.

    • Freebird1971

      I see evidence every day that it did happen

  21. Thunderchild

    “It is self evident to millions of people”

    Yes, that’s called a self reinforcing delusion.

    “Earth Day” is FAR more important than some religious dogma. A form of Earth awareness and reverence is what you people STOLE to co-opt as your own holy days. These were ANCIENT traditions based in very real world observances. We are wise to return to the wisdom of our ancestors who were not deluded by faith in invisible things.

  22. Freebird1971

    “Earth Day” is FAR more important than some religious dogma

    Your opinion, which you are entitled to, but has never and will never be mine

  23. Thunderchild

    “I see evidence every day that it did happen”

    And I see evidence every day that it didn’t.

  24. Thunderchild

    “One doesn’t have to look hard all you have to do is open your eyes”

    Yeah 2000 years of push religious doggerel on each succeeding generation has helped with that.

    Fortunately, times are changing. MY son has been taught the lie of the Christian holy days and and how they were stolen from far more reality based seasonal observances. He understands these stolen holidays with their made up tales only in a secondary sense. They are the truth “under not so new management” and badly conceived at that.

    Shepherds tending their flocks by night in DECEMBER??

    A guy dies and comes back to life and the date commemorating this changes every year?

    We live in THIS world. We need to have reverence for THIS world. The “next world” is required to provide greater proof of its existence. Unless and until that be the case, it is bunk, nothing more.

    • wicked

      It’s the first Sunday after the full moon following the spring equinox. That made it easy for them to remember at the time. While the pagans were dancing and cavorting (among other things) at Ostara, the new religion started counting.

      There will always be “religions” aka faith in something that cannot be proven. Many people need it, although not all. Arguing who is correct will get you nowhere. Believe what makes you happy, and leave the others who don’t share your faith alone.

  25. wicked

    Guys, guys. It’s all about faith. Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong. If you believe, that, in itself, makes it right…at least for you.

    It’s all good, no matter what. 🙂

    (And they wonder why there are wars… sigh)

    • indypendent


      This fighting over difference of religious beliefs or the act of not believing in religion is exactly what our Founding Fathers were worried about when they decided NOT to have a government-endorsed religion.

      Religions are man-made – faith is of God. The two should never be confused.

  26. Thunderchild

    As I said, I am not a Christian, but I respect those that are.

    Your failing and why progressives are losing.

    It is a perfect marriage, the right and Christianity. If you are hurting? You are not right with “God”. If you are prosperous, “God” has blessed you because you “deserve” it.

    I spit on this hypocrisy AND the Faith that inspires and encourages it.

  27. Thunderchild

    A street I aint on with you or your churchy friends there Willy.

    • WSClark

      We’ve noticed, but it’s all good. As Dylan said: “Most likely, you go your way and I’ll go mine.”

  28. wicked

    I’ve never known insults to make a valid point.

  29. I’ve never known anyone to see genius in someone who has offended them.

    • WSClark

      I see genius every time I look in the mirror!

      Yeah, I have a little sticker of Albert Einstein on my bathroom mirror just so I can say that.

  30. Thunderchild

    In case anyone missed it, “give me the strength” boy came here attacking Earth day, denouncing it as unimportant.

    I was merely pointing out to him the folly of his own, co-opted holiday. Don’t worry, it won’t stop he and his judging on how the rest of us live. They’ll be sure to let us know if Jesus sees his shadow or whatever.

    • He had his say, everyone had their say. No person is better than or lesser than another!

    • WSClark

      Perhaps you can explain why “give me strength” is a bad thing?

      • indypendent

        I think anywhere anyone can get strength is a good thing.

        But I would like to add hope to that list of things I need given to me.

        And a person’s religious faith is what gives that person hope (or I would assume so). Does that mean everyone who claims to be religious is going to be giving hope and strength to others? Real good chance they are not because people are human beings and we are fallible.

        And when those religious groups are all consumed about getting and keeping power in the form of lour government – that is when the people have the right to either embrace that religion or to turn away from it.

        But in the end – it is up to each one of us to make that choice for ourselves.

    • Freebird1971

      Didn’t attack anything just voiced my opinion you turned it into an attack

  31. indypendent

    I am a Christian but I am also very vocal about how I see Evangelical Christians have hijacked my faith and twisted it into their own special version.

    But that does not mean that my faith is wrong. That is where man-made religions come into play here.

    The Christians aligned with the Republicans’ agenda are, by marjority, Evangelical Christians. Just take a good look at all these Republican governors pushings all kinds of anti-social issues to forefront are for the most part – Evangelical Christians.

    And if you look throughout history – the Evangelical Christians are certainly not the first religious group to have an insatiable thirst for power – are they?

    But we are in a country that believes in freedom of religion – so it is up to the rest of Americans to keep it that way. That means we need to point out their hyprocrisy (and boy is there a bunch of that ) and keep plugging along to fight for those issues we believe in.

    That is what a democracy is all about – it is up to the people to decide.

    But to simply want to fight the Evangelicals just because they are Christians – is not the way to go about it.

    BTW – if you take a good look around at some polling – these Evangelicals are not exactly the most popular ones at this dance. They are being exposed and that exposure needs to be kept on them.

  32. indypendent

    In case anyone missed it, “give me the strength” boy came here attacking Earth day, denouncing it as unimportant.

    I did not take Freebird’s comment as an attack on Earth Day. In fact, in the original comment I really did not know which other day he was talking about. Only after he mentioned something about sorry for offending anyone about Good Friday – did I even know what he was talking about.

    I was certainly not offended by his talking about Good Friday – but I hope he was not offended either because I first commented about the BP oil rig sinking as the anniversary of this year’s Earth Day.

    Good Friday did not even enter my mind when I read his first comment since the topic threader picture was about Earth Day.

    This entire miscommunication from the beginning and then this continuation of this seeming endless discussion about religion seems to be proof enough (at least to me) that this is why religion and politics should never mix.

    It is hard enough in politics without throwing in religion. And that is one thing the Founding Fathers agreed upon – even those who were not of the Chrsitian persuasion (which were several).

  33. Thunderchild

    “Didn’t attack anything just voiced my opinion you turned it into an attack.”

    But you won’t have to wait long to hear from him or any number of the poor poor put upon persecuted people of piety.

    “Perhaps you can explain why “give me strength” is a bad thing?”

    Because in the case of that strength coming from faith, it endows the “empowered” with the belief they have knowledge or wisdom that others lack or do not understand. It’s then a short jump for them to start presuming to speak for their “god”. HIS faith may do the bit of occasional good. SOME of those of his faith even understand Earth day and environmental concern as a MANDATE of their faith to be good stewards of “Creation”. The absence of his faith in others does no harm to those faithful or those of no faith.

    Such is not the case with Earth day and environmentalism. Indifference and even contempt for these ideals, (as our thirsty ….friend….has shown) is harmful to the very planet we all know as our only home, here, now, and for all those who will come after.

    • Freebird1971

      The only faith I have is in God,don’t belong to any particular denomination.

      In reality nothing you,I or anyone else for that matter posts on any blog anywhere will have any impact on anyone other than voicing our opinions and even making some friends along the way