Friday, 1/14/11, Public Square

I think I can, I think I can, I KNOW I can make political discourse civil!

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Filed under The Public Square

118 responses to “Friday, 1/14/11, Public Square

  1. Next Friday, January 21st, is the one-year anniversary of the SCOTUS decision on Citizens United. A rally is planned!

  2. Their leader, Sarah Palin, taught them how to optimize being the victim!

    Tucson Tea Party Leader Blames Gabrielle Giffords for Getting Shot

    Tucson Tea Party co-founder Trent Humphries has disgustingly blamed US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords for her own shooting. “It’s political gamesmanship,” he explained to Britain’s Guardian. “The real case is that she [Giffords] had no security whatsoever at this event. So if she lived under a constant fear of being targeted, if she lived under this constant fear of this rhetoric and hatred that was seething, why would she attend an event in full view of the public with no security whatsoever?”

    That’s not all. In addition to the six people murdered by gunman Jared Loughner last Saturday, including a nine-year-old girl and a federal judge, Humphries says there is another victim of the massacre: the Tea Party movement, and Humphries himself. He says the tragic killings are “evolving into a conspiracy” to destroy the Tea Party and silence criticism of the government.

    http://morallowground.com/2011/01/12/tucson-tea-party-leader-blames-gabrielle-giffords-for-getting-shot/

  3. Interesting! Don’t miss the comments.

  4. Health care reform law back on House agenda for Tuesday

    The GOP is planning a two-day debate beginning Tuesday evening and ending Wednesday evening, with a vote that will most likely send the bill to the Senate, where it is unlikely to see the light of day.

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47566.html#ixzz1B1BXWmUX

    • wicked

      Who are they debating? Themselves? They’ve decided the Democrats have no voice, so why bother debating? Just vote and be done with it. They aren’t going to get anywhere with it. They know it. They’re grandstanding.

  5. Vote on Michael Steele Today

    The RNC picks its next chairman today and the result is far from certain. Reince Priebus, a former adviser to current chairman Michael Steele, is in the lead with 44 members, a quarter of the voting committee, according to Politico. Steele is in second place with 24, trailed closely by Michigan committeeman Saul Anuzis, Missouri GOP Chair Ann Wagner, and Pfizer lobbyist Maria Cino. But Steele may have a card up his sleeve: U.S. territories such as Guam and American Samoa, which haven’t let on whom they’re voting for, are expected to go for him. Another potential complication comes from an RNC provision requiring the committee to have a chairman and co-chairman of different genders; the Louisiana Republican Party chairman is campaigning for the co-chairmanship, so his supporters may vote for Wagner or Cino. The winner will have a tough job, as the RNC’s troubles have caused the party to turn to outside organizations like American Crossroads for help expanding its voter database.

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47605.html

    • The comments on this piece are interesting.

      “…Wheres the Change GOP? How many seats does a BLACK RNC Chairman needs to win in order to keep his Job? 100? 200? 435 and 100 in the Senate? !!!…”

      “Is there a nickels difference between them? Really.”

      “…maybe he should run for president next and corner that “huge” Republican African-American vote and simultaneously challenge/needle the party that is on the brink of rejecting him (with prejudice)…”

      Speaking of Cino: “…She is supposed to be the TeamBush Stalking Horse. (along with Newt) Open borders like Bush…Multiple wars like Bush..More free Trade..Like Bush…..BIG MONey behind her.

      So the TeamBush..Karl Roves..Chamber of Commerce..Transnational Corporation…Free Trade Charlatons…Economic TRaitors….the Lot of them…

      They will roll M.Steele today.

      And then go out and pick Open Borders..Free Trading….Economic Traitors..like themselves..to run…”

  6. prairie pond

    Interesting stuff, Fnord. Thanks. I like the Elizabeth Lesser one. Contrary to my experience with some family dinners, it’s harder to fight over food!

    Is it just me, or has this been an exceptionally long and difficult work week? I dont know if it’s the sadness from the shooting or… just a long damn week!

    Zippy? Let us know how you are, please?

  7. I’ve never been one to keep up with astrology. In fact, the person who I would say is most different than me in every possible way is my sister who was born the day before my third birthday. I’ve always questioned how the two of us could share the same ‘sign.’

    But now there is much hullabaloo over whether we are the sign we thought we were and maybe we’re not… None of that answers my question about me and my sister who would both be something different, but still the same. 🙂

    Two takes:

    No, your zodiac sign hasn’t changed
    http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/13/no-your-zodiac-sign-hasnt-changed/

    Your Zodiac Sign May Have Changed
    http://gawker.com/5732115/your-zodiac-sign-may-have-changed?skyline=true&s=i

    • I used to be Libra. Here’s the new me:

      Virgo is the only zodiacal sign represented by a female. It is sometimes thought of as a potentially creative girl, delicately lovely; sometimes as a somewhat older woman, intelligent but rather pedantic and spinsterish. The latter impression is sometimes confirmed by the Virgoan preciseness, refinement, fastidious love of cleanliness, hygiene and good order, conventionality and aristocratic attitude of reserve. They are usually observant, shrewd, critically inclined, judicious, patient, practical supporters of the status quo, and tend toward conservatism in all departments of life. On the surface they are emotionally cold, and sometimes this goes deeper, for their habit of suppressing their natural kindness may in the end cause it to atrophy, with the result that they shrink from committing themselves to friendship, make few relationships, and those they do make they are careful to keep superficial.

    • It’s a good thing I registered as Republican in the run-up to the 2010 elections since I tend toward conservatism in all departments of life now that my ‘sign’ has changed!

      hahahahahahahahahaha

  8. Ranking Cute Animals: A Stock Market Experiment

    On the surface, Planet Money’s first-ever economics experiment was all about cute animals. (You can see the experiment here.) But we were really trying to get a better sense of how the stock market works.

    We got the idea from John Maynard Keynes. Back in 1936, he described the stock market as a particular kind of beauty contest. You see a bunch of women’s faces, but you’re not supposed to say who you think is prettiest. You’re supposed to guess who everyone else will think is the prettiest.

    In the market, Keynes argued, it doesn’t make sense to invest in the company you think is best. It makes sense to invest in the company that you think other people will think is best. Because if everyone else invests in a company, the price of its stock will rise.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/01/14/132906135/ranking-cute-animals-a-stock-market-experiment?sc=fb&cc=fp

  9. indypendent

    The Tea Party, Rush, Beck and Sarah Palin have to paint themselves as the victim because that is what their mode of operation has always been. They always paint an enemy – Obama, Democrats, the liberal media or the government There is ALWAYS an enemy for them to fight the good fight.

    And as for blaming the victim for her own shooting – that is just not classy at all. But then again, I remember these same supporters of the TP and Palin sitting there with Rush when he compared a young Chelsea Clinton to the White House dog. These grown people sat and laughed at that. Is there anything that would be too low for these folks to stoop to score political points?

    And the truly sad part is – most of these people profess to be such fine godly Christians. When has God laughed at some young girl’s looks?

    Just let them keep flapping their gums and showing their disdain for civility. With them flapping their gums and the New and Improve GOP House doing their budget cutting – led by their beloved new leader Johnny B (whose tears were flowing for the victims on the House floor but he could not be bothered to attend the memorial service in Tucson that night); I think the tide will turn rather quickly on all these folks.

    I still believe in the basic goodness of people. But when good people get pushed by those who claim to be supeior but always wear the ‘victim’ crown , things will not turn out well for the perpetual victims.

  10. indypendent

    Remember all the hub bub about the Mayan calendar and how the world will end in 2012?

    I remember reading about that a while back and what I got from my reading is that the year 2012 will bring about a new awakening.

    Maybe that awakening will be the opening of alot of eyes and minds to the destruction that incivility, hatred, religious intolerance, and the pursuit of money at all costs?

    If that is true – then I suspect Fox News and other talk radio entertainers might just be out of a job. Now that would be KARMA.

    • wicked

      Astrologically, we’ve been slowly moving into the Age of Aquarius, although it’s impossible to pinpoint the exact point/date when it happens.

      When the moon is in the Seventh House
      And Jupiter aligns with Mars
      Then peace will guide the planets
      And love will steer the stars

      This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
      The age of Aquarius
      Aquarius!
      Aquarius!

      Harmony and understanding
      Sympathy and trust abounding
      No more falsehoods or derisions
      Golden living dreams of visions
      Mystic crystal revalation
      And the mind’s true liberation
      Aquarius!
      Aquarius!

      When the moon is in the Seventh House
      And Jupiter aligns with Mars
      Then peace will guide the planets
      And love will steer the stars

      This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
      The age of Aquarius
      Aquarius!
      Aquarius!

      If we can only live long enough…

  11. indypendent

    Jon Stewart was never one of my favorite people. But you know what, I like him more and more as time goes by.

    And what’s better than that – alot of younger people like Jon Stewart and that is the future of the political parties.

    ttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/14/stewart-arizona-memorial_n_808985.html

    • Jon often cuts through the nonsense. I am reminded after watching that clip from his show of the comment Zippy made last night on yesterday’s Public Square thread:

      “Sigh. . .I didn’t even read the link. I can guess.

      I guess they missed the part where Carlos said he was a fifth-generation Tucsconian.

      Maybe you have to live here to get it.

      His comment was made about the criticisms of the Native American blessing.

      Yesterday I read this quote:

      “Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious.”
      Peter Ustinov (1921 – 2004)

      I’m proud of our young people! Maybe their generation will learn from the mistakes we make.

  12. indypendent

    Someone made a comment on the Opinion Line today that they were disapointed in Obama because his Tucson speech was obviously written for him and he did not speak from the heart.

    I suspect this was one of those planted comments from the other side to make Obama look like he does not really care.

    Well, the speech I listened to had many personal details about each of the victims. So, who would not want that speech written when giving details?

    You know the same bunch complaining about Obama would be the first ones to criticize him for not getting the personal details correct about the victims if he had just ‘winged it’.

    But, at least Obama showed up for the memorial service and offered the House Speaker Boehner a ride on Air Force One but I guess scoring political points was more important??

    But yet not word of complaint about Johnny B and his choice of priorities that night.

  13. fragotwofortwo

    As if you didn’t already know this,

    http://www.thebiblestudypage.com/wordseye_69.shtml

    lot’s of interesting posts on the triple p today

    • I skimmed it and got the general gist. It would take a stronger stomach to read more.

    • wicked

      Wow, it must have taken some twisted thinking to come up with that crap. Where was the part about Jesus taking care of the sick, poor, and the children? That pastor or whatever should read that, then come by to show where the Conservatives have been doing that. Not in their churches, but in their LIVES.

      As I understand, there’s more to the story of Satan than the bits and pieces of dodging and blaming that are in the Bible. If I repeated what I’ve heard, it might be incorrect, so I won’t. But I will present an interesting link that the pastor might well read, just for the sake of argument. 😉

      http://www.s8int.com/lucifer.html

  14. frago brought up this topic yesterday and the situation in Tunisia has put attention on it.

    ——————————-

    Global food chain stretched to the limit

    Strained by rising demand and battered by bad weather, the global food supply chain is stretched to the limit, sending prices soaring and sparking concerns about a repeat of food riots last seen three years ago.

    Signs of the strain can be found from Australia to Argentina, Canada to Russia.

    “Situations have changed. The supply/demand structures have changed,” Abbassian told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. last week. “Certainly the kind of weather developments we have seen makes us worry a little bit more that it may last much, much longer. Are we prepared for it? Really this is the question.”

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41062817/ns/business-consumer_news/

    • Tunisia’s president Ben Ali has fled the country, according to Al Jazeera’s Alan Fisher. Parliament Speaker Fuad Mbazaa will take over the country, which is in a state of emergency after protests over corruption, unemployment, and inflation. Protests began after a man set himself on fire after police stopped him from selling vegetables without a permit. Thirteen people died Thursday night in clashes, and 60 total have died din recent weeks. Ali has governed the country since 1987.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

    • At least 500 people are dead and thousands more are trapped in their homes in the mountainous region north of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where heavy rains have pushed mud down the slopes, burying buildings. About 14,000 people have been displaced by the torrential summer rains and mudslides; several neighborhoods and small towns were completely destroyed. Rescue workers are rushing to free the trapped, working around the clock and using heavy equipment to move the mud. But even they are hampered by the weather: three firefighters were swept away when there car was overtaken by a flash flood. President Dilma Rousseff has promised seven tons of medicine for the area, and signed a decree authorizing an emergency fund. The Brazilian military have set up a field hospital, and thousands are taking refuge in gymnasiums.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12187985

    • An extensive study of tree growth rings says there could be a link between the rise and fall of past civilizations and sudden shifts in Europe’s climate.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12186245

    • Seems global climate change is a serious subject worthy of action!

  15. indypendent

    I agree about our young people – they are much less judgmental.

    I did notice that Brit Hume was the one that made the comment about the Native American blessing as being ‘peculiar’.

    Wasn’t Brit the same guy that told Tiger Woods that he needed to convert to Christianity as a way to get out of his infidelity trouble?

    What is it with these Evangelical Christians that just cannot seem to let people choose their own religious beliefs. But more than that, these evangelicals are missing the best part – the beauty and spiritual meaning of different religions might just be a way to learn something new.

    Now you see why I left the Evangelical Christian movement in the late 70’s. I was not exactly the quiet little woman who was happy to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen making supper for my master (man),

    LOL

    • “Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” — Oscar Wilde

    • indypendent

      And reading that King James Version Bible…….

    • indypendent

      I just find it fascinating to learn of different religions and cultures.

      That is one thing I have noticed about these mega evangelical christian churches (of which I am very familiar from the late 70’s when they first began their domination). These churches rarely speak of other religions in any other context than they are bad and evil.

      I never heard the preacher at my evangelical Christian church ever say one kind word about any other church – unless they were a ‘sister’ church of ours.

      And I think they do this because that somehow translates the message that if you’re at the ‘right’ church adn with the ‘right’ people, then you’re a part of the select group. And I really think that is what the message of most of these mega evangelical churches is today – it is nothing more than a country club for the ‘right’ people.

      I have no problem with anyone wanting to go to an evangelical christian church – because that is every person’s right.

      But what I do not like is when they bring that thinking and philosophy to the political world.

      I’ve said it before – politics and religion should never mix.

      And that goes for all religions. The Founding Fathers were wise when they used the term ‘the Creator’ . Did you notice they did not use the word Christian God?

    • wicked

      Indy, they don’t like people learning about other religions, because those who do might find something more attractive than their own!

      Seriously, Christianity is a relatively new religion and many of its tenets have been taken from other religions. Think of the Bible. The OT was borrowed from the Jews and added to, bringing Jesus into the forefront. How many Christian religious holidays are there in the OT? Uh, none. Only Jewish religious holidays.

      Christian holidays were stolen from the pagans. I’ve always thought it was a great trick and the perfect way to incorporate Christian ideas into extremely ancient beliefs. A real stroke of genius. People were told that if they were good and chose to follow Christ, they’d go to a place called Heaven. If they were bad, which included continuing with their pagan practices, they’d go to a place called Hell, presided over by an evil being calld Satan. If you were uneducated and fairly superstitious, it wouldn’t be difficult to sway you over to the Christian religion.

      Which one is right? I don’t know, anymore than anyone else does, in spite of saying they do. They talk about “truth,” but it’s really “belief” and “faith.” And too many “believe” that if you don’t follow the teachings of their “faith” (aka belief in something that can’t be proven), then you’re bad. I don’t and will never agree.

    • indypendent

      I also think these churches want to keep the money coming into their own coffers.

      What if learning about other religions prompted someone to leave and take their money with them?

      With multi-million dollar budgets – who wants to lose revenue?

  16. indypendent

    I think we talked about this issue when this happened. But here is a link to a Tea Party leader advocating for the disbandment of the Methodist Church.

    Now what true Constitutionalist would call for the disbandment of a church when the Founding Fathers guaranteed all Americans the freedom of religion?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/20/judson-phillips-tea-party-methodist_n_799351.html

    • wicked

      Which Methodist Church? There are more than one. 🙂 You know, some of those who were in the original Methodist Church, decided they didn’t agree with some of those beliefs, so they broke off and started a new church of Methodist persuassion, giving it an extra name.

      Much like the Christians, who began their churchiness with the Catholic Church, until the Pope and Rome stole their money, prayed to “false idols,” etc. Then along came Martin Luther, and the protestants were formed. They even kept some of the prayers, but changed the rules to suit them. So the Protestants did much the same to the Catholics as the Catholics did to the pagans. Amazing.

    • indypendent

      You make a very interesting point!

      There are so many churches today that are merely just different versions of other churches and at the end of the day – they all got it from some pagans.

      I am still amazed at how many devout Christians do not know how many of their Christmas traditions were actually ‘borrowed’ from the pagans.

    • itolduso

      Where is the call for disbandonment in the article?

      And a good question

      ” Get Politics Alerts

      Email Comments 4,036 Judson Phillips, founder of Tea Party Nation, one of the country’s most prominent tea party organizations, really seems to despise the Methodist Church, or as he would call it, “the first Church of Karl Marx.”

      In a recent blog post (subscription required) the founder of Tea Party Nation recounts his recent experience visiting the United Methodist Building in Washington D.C., where he saw a promotional banner for the DREAM Act, a failed piece of legislation that would have provided a path to citizenship for some undocumented immigrants who entered the country as children.

      Such a stance could only mean one thing, Phillips concluded.

      “The Methodist church is pro-illegal immigration,” he said. “They have been in the bag for socialist health care, going as far as sending out emails to their membership ‘debunking’ the myths of Obamacare.

      Say, where are the liberal complaints on the separation of church and state?”

    • wicked

      Oh, Indy, my question of which Methodists was not directed at you. 🙂

      Actually, I think the Baptists have the most sub-denominations. (Is that what they’d be?) At least that’s what I’ve heard.

      I’ve attended many Protestant churches in my life. Even though I was born and raised Catholic, my parents allowed me to experience other denominations, so I did. Baptist, Church of Christ, Christian, Methodist, Lutheran, and others, and Presbyterian, where I was married & took my kids for a while. I tend to like the more liberally minded of them the best. I can’t imagine why. LOL

      I appreciate the beliefs of others and have no problem with them worshiping in their churches, synagogues, temples, or even teepees, for that matter. Just don’t expect me to follow along meekly, because I am and have always been a questioner and choose my ideologies by what fits me best.

  17. indypendent

    This is sad news I just read – does anyone remember the television ‘Touched by an Angel’?

    I liked that show because it was not condescending or preachy – it was simply the message of God’s love for everyone. IMHO – that is the missing message today – we are all a part of the big picture. And whenever a stone is thrown into the lake, there are ripples that extend beyond the point of impact.

    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/41066513/ns/today-entertainment/?gt1=43001

  18. fragotwofortwo

    itolduso
    January 14, 2011 at 1:51 pm

    “The Methodist church is pro-illegal immigration,” he said. “They have been in the bag for socialist health care, going as far as sending out emails to their membership ‘debunking’ the myths of Obamacare.

    “Say, where are the liberal complaints on the separation of church and state?””

    Define separation of church n state in the context of debunking the myths of Obamacare.

    • itolduso

      It was not my statement, but in addition to the Obamacare legislation, the it was addressing ” a promotional banner for the DREAM Act,”

      So, even though it wasn’t my question, I will repeat it

      “Say, where are the liberal complaints on the separation of church and state”

      A common complaint by many liberals when any church makes or supports somehting politically conservative. Other than requesting equal treatment, I could care less. But I see on this blog by many a hard and fast rule of separation of church and state, especially if it is a conservative. I just request that more liberal churches receive the same.

  19. wicked

    Say, where are the liberal complaints on the separation of church and state?”

    I need a little more than just some Tea Partier saying those things. First give me proof, instead of rumor, then I’ll decide it it’s PC or not.

    • itolduso

      I guess I could use the same argument. I need a little more than just some Huffington Post writer saying those things. First, give me proof, instead of rumor, then I’ll decide it it’s PC or not.

      Now, doesn’ that sound ridiculous? and petty? Of course it does. It was a Huff Post article. not some posting by the “Tea Party Leader”

  20. fragotwofortwo

    itolduso
    January 14, 2011 at 2:36 pm

    “A common complaint by many liberals when any church makes or supports somehting politically conservative. Other than requesting equal treatment, I could care less. But I see on this blog by many a hard and fast rule of separation of church and state, especially if it is a conservative. I just request that more liberal churches receive the same.”

    Where are you not getting equal treatment? Has the liberal version of operation rescue barricaded the front doors of your church?

    • wicked

      Good one, frago! 🙂

      Seriously, considering the not-quite-true statements that TPers and some others on the conservative side of politics have made in the past, I hesitate to accept a word-of-mouth recounting of something. It was a blog. Did the man saying he saw this banner include a photo? Perhaps if this did happen, he might want to discuss it with the head of the Methodist Church? I don’t understand what blogging about it will change it, except to stir up the “congregation.” 😉

      I’m also curious if this was discovered through one of the very generous emails the Right enjoys distributing.

      I’ll go check Snopes…

    • wicked

      Nothing on Snopes, but after a quick google, I did find the full story on Huffpost. itolduso, if you’re brave enough, I suggest you read it.

      For others here, read it and then read the comments. You can then move on to some of the headlines of other stories involving Mr. Phillips. Seems he isn’t exactly loved by all of his fellow TPers, especially after making some nasty comments about the shooting in AZ.

  21. itolduso

    I’m also curious if this was discovered through one of the very generous emails the Right enjoys distributing.

    I’ll go check Snopes…

    ***********************************

    This was brought to you by HuffPost and Indeypendent. Perhaps they can answer your question.

  22. itolduso

    Where are you not getting equal treatment? Has the liberal version of operation rescue barricaded the front doors of your church?

    Since my church thinks Operation Rescue is a hoax and a crock, perhaps the real version might barricade my door. What’s your point about Operation Rescue? Do you have one?

  23. itolduso

    Where are you not getting equal treatment?
    ************************************************
    Where are the complaints about this Methodist Church and the Separation of CHurch and State?

  24. I have no trouble understanding the word all and have seen most people who blog here say all churches should avoid politics — church and state should always be separate. So now we have to scream and grumble and gripe and complain over each incident because all isn’t clear?

    If that Methodist headquarters did what is purported, they shouldn’t have. Grumble, gripe, complain. They were wrong.

    • itolduso

      good enough for me.

    • itolduso

      “So now we have to scream and grumble and gripe and complain over each incident because all isn’t clear?”

      No, because the only churches and “religous” folks ever bitched about mixing church and state are those of a conservative stripe. More liberal churches get a pass.

    • There’s a difference in churches — some are conservative and some liberal? In the political sense or that some churches have harder and faster rules than others and that makes them more conservative? Or some churches are more tolerant of individuals making their own choices so they teach the Bible but know they can’t enforce those teachings on other people so that makes them more liberal?

      Good gawd.

  25. itolduso

    Nothing on Snopes, but after a quick google, I did find the full story on Huffpost. itolduso, if you’re brave enough, I suggest you read it.

    Where do you think I got it? Directlyfrom the link posted above by Indeypendent. I indeed read the whole thing. AND?

    • wicked

      Hey, chill. I didn’t see your post before I posted.

      It made the issue and the people invovled much clearer.

      From what I know of the Methodist Church (UMC) and the Christian (not sure which sub), both are considered more liberal churches, so I’m not surprised. The edict that has come down from up high on abortion is that the the church entity is leaving it to each person. (My, my, what a novel idea!) Add the Presbyterian as liberal, since women are allowed to become pastors. Gay pastors are also allowed in the more “liberal” (check that word in the dictionary) churches.

      Honestly, itolduso, I expect churches to take some kind of stand on these things. My beef is when a minister/pastor/priest is telling people WHO TO VOTE FOR. Yes, it does happen. As for OP, I feel it’s the way in which they present themselves to the public…and the things seen on their signs that are NEGATIVE about political figures. If the Methodist Building had a banner proclaiming Obama the Second Coming, I would first, LMAO, and then I would definitely question it.

      Apples and oranges is how I see it.

  26. These kind of shenanigans reinforce my disapproval of organized religion.

  27. wicked

    I think the analogy using Operation Rescue is a clear one. OP has made abortion a religious issue and using it politically. If OP and the churches connected to it (Spirit One, anyone?) can do it, why can’t the Methodists support the DREAM Act? (And it was in the Methodist building, not a Methodist church, although that is being picky. 🙂

    • itolduso

      fine. So since the Methodist church can support the Dream Act, then, then Spirit ONE, and every other CHurch, can publicly support any legislation they so choose, and you won’t have a complaint? Just to clairify your position.

  28. itolduso

    B ack to my original question

    “Where is the call for disbandonment in the article?”

  29. itolduso

    There’s a difference in churches — some are conservative and some liberal? In the political sense or that some churches have harder and faster rules than others and that makes them more conservative? Or some churches are more tolerant of individuals making their own choices so they teach the Bible but know they can’t enforce those teachings on other people so that makes them more liberal?

    Good gawd.

    What are you talking about?

    • itolduso
      January 14, 2011 at 3:25 pm

      No, because the only churches and “religous” folks ever bitched about mixing church and state are those of a conservative stripe. More liberal churches get a pass.

      ——————

      Emphasis mine. Did you notice my comment was in reply to this one? That might have told you what I was talking about.

  30. fragotwofortwo

    itolduso,
    I give up you win. Think whatever you want. We may speak the same language, but the words do not have the same meaning. I apologize for all the liberals in the world who have hurt your feelings, thought you beloved institutions are pure bs, blah blah blah.

  31. itolduso

    Did you ask whoever wrote the article? It wasn’t anyone here near as I can determine.

    I will spell it out for you

    My question was

    ““Where is the call for disbandonment in the article?”

    It was in response to
    *********************************************************
    indypendent
    January 14, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    I think we talked about this issue when this happened. But here is a link to a Tea Party leader advocating for the disbandment of the Methodist Church.

    Now what true Constitutionalist would call for the disbandment of a church when the Founding Fathers guaranteed all Americans the freedom of religion?

    ********************************
    the Post included a link to the article. I read the article and did not find such a call. I asked the poster where the Tea Party leader advocating for the disbandment of the Methodist Church.

    Have I explained myself well enough?

  32. wicked

    I don’t necessarily think the DREAM Act was so much political in the eyes of the Methodist Church. I think it was more in the line of being humanitarians.

    • itolduso

      As can be said about any piece of “social” legislation, true?

      So, if Spirit One had a sign out front telling people to NOT support the Dream Act, you would support them?

    • It is sometimes difficult to determine whether the church stuck its nose into state business or the state into church business. There is overlap especially when legislating morals.

    • I would not like it if any church had a sign supporting or opposing a Bill before Congress, calling it out by name. I would not have a problem with any church having a sign saying everyone was welcome and would find acceptance inside. They wouldn’t have to say they didn’t discriminate based on race, nationality or whether or not the person was born in America, was or wasn’t legal, but it would be OK with me if they did.

  33. itolduso

    I apologize for all the liberals in the world who have hurt your feelings, thought you beloved institutions are pure bs, blah blah blah.

    You have no idea my point, and refuse to listen. That’s fine. Be well.

  34. itolduso

    From Wicked

    “Honestly, itolduso, I expect churches to take some kind of stand on these things. My beef is when a minister/pastor/priest is telling people WHO TO VOTE FOR. ”

    You will get no argument from me. However, how many times on a national level, have you heard a call for churches to keep a separation of church and state and not speak when it comes to the abortion issue, or some other hot button topic? Seriously. When we recognize that the issue is the same, regardless of the “issue” at hand, we (as in nationally) begin a true dialogue.
    We can do so here by not automatically dismissing something because it comes from someone whith which we disagree.

    It will take everyone getting out of their comfort zone and actually listening. Including me.

    Some people want an actual dialogue. Some people want a mirror. It is up to us to decide which one we will be. However, to just dismiss the other side as just wanting a mirror, without taking a look at our own desires for mirrors, is not dialogue.

  35. We should all get a good laugh about this.

    During a flurry of comments being posted I didn’t understand what itolduso was asking, didn’t know he was asking Indy and didn’t understand that he was asking because she had posted, “I think we talked about this issue when this happened. But here is a link to a Tea Party leader advocating for the disbandment of the Methodist Church.”

    Once he put it all in chronological order I finally understood.

    At the same exact time as all this flurry was going on, he did exactly what I had done. Read a comment I made in response to one he made, didn’t realize mine was in response to one he’d made so asked me, “What are you talking about?”

    I should have stopped and asked him what he was talking about.

    Knowledge advances understanding.

  36. indypendent

    why all the hostility over one article that I posted from Huffington Post?

    why can’t it just be taken as written and if you do not agree with the premise of the article, then that is your right to state so. That is your opinon.

    But each of us also have the same right that itolduso has in forming our own opinions.

    That does not make one person superior (or the winner) over the other one.

    this is a public blog with differing views.
    What is a more insightful question might be – why do Social Conservatives always get their panties in a bunch when someone dares to say something against any of their Christian co-horts?

    • itolduso

      “why do Social Conservatives always get their panties in a bunch when someone dares to say something against any of their Christian co-horts?”

      So, are you including me in that remark? Just for clarification, ya know.

  37. itolduso

    Regardless,

    Much of the above is because I believe the “Tea Party Leader”s question is a valid one, at least on a national scale. Perhaps not here. Perhaps all the liberals and progressives, and the whatever else here is just fine with churches positions on social issues, whatever their particular take. I should have left it at MY original question, which is still valid because it was in answer to something posted here, by a regular poster. SHould have been one topic at a time. My bad.

    • itolduso

      answered

    • indypendent

      But most social Conservative Christians do not believe in the separation of church and state.

      So what’s your beef?

      As for hating the Methodist Church for being pro-illegal – this TPer leader might want to check on how the Catholic Church treats illegal immigrants.

      hey, if the Methodist Church is evil incarnate for supporting illegals – then let’s see this TPer go after the Catholic Church and the Pope.

  38. indypendent

    Seems to me that alot of people got the same message from this Tea Party Leader about his dream of no more Methodist Church.

    But, itolduso, you’re correct. The TPer guy did not use the word ‘disband’ – so techically you’re now the superior one in this hotly debated issue.

    But doesn’t it strike you as somewhat strange that alot of people got the same idea from this TPer’s language about the his hatred of the Methodist Church.

    But even with that – my original assessment is still true.

    Why would any Constitutionalist want to see no more Methodist Churches?
    I do find it telling that you never brought up that part of my posted comment but rather jumped on the semantics of the words used.

    but, as I said, you’re correct – this TPer never used the word ‘disband’- the author of the article did that.

    Now do you feel better?

  39. itolduso

    This one is about the Touched By An Angel actor’s death.

    I know I am old, but didn;t Michael Landon do the Touched by an Angel series? Was their a remake?

  40. fragotwofortwo

    I wonder if the trend is accelerating with all this wing nuttery

    http://www.newsweek.com/2009/04/03/the-end-of-christian-america.html

    The End of Christian America

    The percentage of self-identified Christians has fallen 10 points in the past two decades. How that statistic explains who we are now—and what, as a nation, we are about to become.
    It was a small detail, a point of comparison buried in the fifth paragraph on the 17th page of a 24-page summary of the 2009 American Religious Identification Survey. But as R. Albert Mohler Jr.—president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, one of the largest on earth—read over the document after its release in March, he was struck by a single sentence. For a believer like Mohler—a starched, unflinchingly conservative Christian, steeped in the theology of his particular province of the faith, devoted to producing ministers who will preach the inerrancy of the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the only means to eternal life—the central news of the survey was troubling enough: the number of Americans who claim no religious affiliation has nearly doubled since 1990, rising from 8 to 15 percent. Then came the point he could not get out of his mind: while the unaffiliated have historically been concentrated in the Pacific Northwest, the report said, “this pattern has now changed, and the Northeast emerged in 2008 as the new stronghold of the religiously unidentified.” As Mohler saw it, the historic foundation of America’s religious culture was cracking.

    • indypendent

      One factor in the decrease in those numbers of self-described Christians is due to all this bickering and fighting as to who are the real Christians and who are only the CINOs (Christian in Name Only).

      or maybe because of all the scandals alot of these high-profile Christians leaders find themselves in and yet manage to get a free pass from their devoted followers?

      Or maybe people are just tired of being told they are evil unless they belong the right church, and give so much money to the right church, and to do nothing without first getting the permission of the right church.

      My Christian Bible tells me that God is with me and I do not need any fancy preacher, with his fancy suits, wearing his fancy gold jewelry or driving his fancy new car.

      Because god is everywhere and God is love. Which is something that is not emphasized much any more. It seems the church world has turned into the ME-ME-ME world.

    • If I were Sarah Palin my answer would be, “IT’S THE MEDIA’S FAULT!” I would blame the media for reporting about Tea Party Nation founder Judson Phillips statements.

      I’m not her and although I understand the outrageous is always reported and the best of what happens in every day America often isn’t, we do have a bunch of these idiots who hold positions of authority, who have a public stage, who represent their ’causes’ poorly.

      I’ve been very upset with the outspoken religious right that Reagan courted and gave a seat at the microphone of American politics. They spew their judgments in the name of God. It makes me sick to my stomach.

    • itolduso

      I think there are a number of reasons, including

      1) the involvement of the church directly in politics
      2) the “faith and blessing” movement
      3) the intentional, continual painting of any church as a negative by some
      4) The general degeneration of the traditional morales and civilities of our society, and those who support that, want the churches to be silenced about their activities
      5) The church forgetting it’s true mission.

    • The hot button issues are always about what someone can do, or who someone is. Abortion. GLBT. So the religious person judges and finds some actions aren’t acceptable. They don’t wait for God to judge each individual, they help Him out and do His work for Him.

  41. itolduso

    But, itolduso, you’re correct. The TPer guy did not use the word ‘disband’ – so techically you’re now the superior one in this hotly debated issue.

    Give me a break. The original HuffPost article you listed said nothing about his attitude towards getting rid of the Methodist CHurch. SInce that was indeed your assertion, it had nothing to do with the word “disband”
    The second link you provided did indeed show his desire the Methodist Church to disappear. Had you first linked to the TPM article, I wouldn;’t have even asked you about it. The man is an idiot.

    “Why would any Constitutionalist want to see no more Methodist Churches?
    I do find it telling that you never brought up that part of my posted comment but rather jumped on the semantics of the words used”

    Pure Bullshit. It had nothing to do with semantics. Your assertion, and the article to back it up, contained nothing of the same.

    GAWD

  42. itolduso

    Perhaps you’re thinking of Highway to Heaven??

    Yeah, that was it. I figured I had something wrong 😦

  43. indypendent

    itolduso – even when I plain out stated that you’re correct in this TPer guy never used the word ‘disband’ – so you’re correct – YOU WIN>>>>>

    Enough said and this is my final comment about this issue.

  44. itolduso

    GAWD – was remedial reading an elective?

    Gawd-

    Was personal insult your only major?

  45. indypendent

    BTW – did you happen to notice in one article about that TPer guy – he is a DUI attorney .

    Yeah, let’s talk about people taking personal responsibility for their actions when a DUI attorney gets invovled.

    What a crock..

  46. indypendent

    But it is only the Christians that decreased in numbers.

    So that suggests there is something wrong with the Christians churches and not ALL churches?

    • indypendent

      maybe it is just the fact people are tired of having to argue over the words they use in trying to express their thoughts because of people who have this insatiable need to be superior?

      The world is not black and white – Life is messy and there are alot of gray areas.

    • I appreciate being corrected when I state something as fact inaccurately. I don’t think my stated opinions should need correcting. I accept that we all have opinions and think mine are as good as those anyone else has. When I say, “I think…,” that is an opinion. I think it works best if differing opinions are simply stated and I don’t think it necessary to judge those which are different.

    • indypendent

      I agree with you fnord 100%. Opinions are just that and should be respected as such.

      I am a person who passionately dislikes the Evangelical Christian movement because I think they have caused more harm than good to the Christian faith.

      But I believe I posted upthread that people can belong to whatever church or faith they want to because that is a guaranteed right.

      But the same right goes to everyone who happens to not want to be in the Evangelical Christian movement.
      And the same goes for any other church or denomination.

      But when constantly questioned and made to feel defensive about the very words one uses – that does not exactly make for an open and honest discussion.

      Like I tried to say above – life is messy and sometimes we all need to trek through some mud and perhaps we will say the wrong thing or word some idea not to the liking of another.

      And sometimes it just comes down to agreeing to disagree.

      but how is that possible when one group refuses to compromise and they are proud to never compromise?

      That does not leave any room for any type of meaningful discussion,

  47. What is the “faith and blessing” movement?

  48. wicked

    Okay, I’m back. And the headache hasn’t gone away. Must be why I’m unable to articulate beyond “duh.”

    I’ll do this as I do in email and hopefully it will help.

    From itolduso:
    >>My question was

    >>““Where is the call for disbandonment in the article?”

    I didn’t see this until you repeated it, before I had to leave, and then I had to think HARD. When I first read the short article I also went on to the longer version of it. Habit. 🙂 Therefore I did see the call for disbandonment, as you did later.

    >>So, if Spirit One had a sign out front telling people to NOT support the Dream Act, you would support them?

    Nope. I wouldn’t support either. You see, I wouldn’t let a church or anything else tell me who to support. I support who and what I choose, and I admit I am not always correct, but more likely FOR ME, I am. However, many do not look into a subject, but instead take the word of someone they believe they can trust. If I have to choose, I honestly do try to get info from all directions to make that decision. It took me YEARS to have even the slightest interest in politics, and when I finally did, I discovered I lean to the left. On the whole, I’m a live and let live person. Just don’t push the wrong buttons, because I can be passionate about things. 🙂

    >>THe second link provides the information the first did not.
    >>Thank you The man is an idiot.

    See? In the end, we agree. But it takes getting more information to see where the man was coming from and what he’s done in the past to form a better or more correct opinion. And that’s why I went on the hunt. 🙂

  49. wicked

    As far as separation of church and state, I’m all for it, including not allowing churches or religious establishments to encourage their followers in what way to think…specifically. That’s practically impossible, though.

    I also think Congress should not have a prayer to open, and I agree that prayer does not belong in school. Funny, but my liberal/democrat parents were aghast when prayer was removed. Because I was young I agreed. But now that I can reason and think, I believe prayer has no place in school, except the silent variety. “Let’s bow our head for a moment of silence.” “Please, God, let me pass this test, and I promise…”

    Until we can remove religion from politics and government, we will never truly be a free country.

    • indypendent

      I don’t remember ever having prayer in school. We always said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning first thing after the bell rang.

      I lived in Illinois throughout my entire childhood – so maybe prayer in school was a local or state thing?

      I do remember in the early 70’s when the Evangelical Christians started their campaign against taking prayer out of school – which I always thought was kind of stupid because – like I said – my school years we never had prayers. And that movement to restore prayer in school started in the early 70’s back home.

      Why would you need to restore something that never happened?

      If we want to have prayer in school- that is okay if it is understood that all prayers will be said – not just the Christian prayers. Would those Evangelical Christians that want prayer restored to schools be okay with a Muslim prayer being said?

    • wicked

      I may have mentioned it before, but in the ’80s, I believe it was, the Girl Scouts allowed the word “God” in their promise to be replaced by whatever deity a girl worshipped or to be left silent for those who chose to.

      Having just checked the GS website, I don’t see that there, and it could be that it either no longer exists or it isn’t a big deal now and is understood within the troops.

      But I think it was the right thing to do. I don’t think anyone should be pigeonholed into pledging or promising or anything like that, when it isn’t right for that person. The same is true for prayer.

      I remember throughout jr. high and high school that Baccalaureate was held each year on the Sunday prior to Tuesday’s high school graduation. At some point, it stopped. I don’t know why. I do know that as seniors we were expected to attend. It IS a religious service. I don’t have a problem with it being held, but if it is predominantly or completely Christian or any other religion/faith, I don’t think it should be mandatory.

      I also believe that each and every faith deserves to be treated with respect. No quiet whistling, humming or staring at the ceiling during a prayer. Bowing of the head and silence is the proper way to show respect, and I would expect no less from any member of my family, whether it was for a Christian prayer or a Native American one.

    • I remember having to relearn the pledge of allegiance to the flag and put the words, “under God” in. We had memorized that pledge long before and recited if often so it wasn’t easy, we had to practice!

  50. indypendent

    itolduso
    January 14, 2011 at 4:42 pm
    GAWD – was remedial reading an elective?

    Gawd-

    Was personal insult your only major

    —-
    You must have misinterpreted my attempt at humor. If you were offended, I apologize.

  51. indypendent

    Here we have another Tea Party Constitutionalist who is trying to impart his wisdom.

    While I have never claimed to be a Constitution expert – I have to wonder if this Tea Party-backed Mike Lee is trying to say we need to let states decide about child labor laws?

    If so, then lock up your kids because obviously no one is safe from this TP group.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/14/mike-lee-child-labor-laws_n_809100.html

  52. indypendent

    I wonder how many people know that several of our Founding Fathers were Deists?

    Secondly, I have to wonder how many people know that Deists are not Christians?

    • wicked

      Not quite a true statement, indy.

      Those Founding Fathers who were Deists had been raised Christian and believed in God (or a Supreme Being). The thing with Deists is that,
      A) Don’t believe in prophesies or miracles
      B) Don’t believe God (or Supreme Being, Creator, etc.) intervenes. IOW, once the earth was created by God, those on earth were on their own. There’s no listening and answering prayers or any of that.

      I had to learn this several years ago, because the word and subject kept coming up in a chat room where I frequented. Believe me, there’s a wide, wide range of liberals out there, and I think most of them chatted in that room. LOL

      Here’s wiki link that explains Deism.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deist

  53. indypendent

    The RNC has a new leader. Seems they like lawyers, after all. But he is a coporate litigation lawyer – so does that make him okay for the elephants?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/14/reince-priebus-rnc-chairman_n_809381.html

    • Well if he’s been litigating for corporations he should fit right in. Maybe he’s saved enough corporations who were sued that he can simply call in the favors and have fund raising done in no time.

    • indypendent

      If you read the article, it appears his law firm employer has been paid about $90,000 by the RNC.

      And then that mention of his law firm employer helping their clients get some of that evil Obama stimulus money. Of course, it was stated that this guy was not a part of the stimulus team.

      Hmmm…… you mean these folks were like all those GOP governors that ranted and screamed about the stimulus bill but yet ran around their state handing out those big checks to get their picture taken?

      One hand is washing another……..nothing to see here that has not been done by both partiets.