Thursday, 1/13/11, Public Square

Definitely!  We are all so sure of our own opinions!

I find our political discourse unsavory and want it to change.  I long for discussions about our different ideas and candidates that may be heated but remain civil.  I actually long even more for qualified candidates who would make us all proud they represent us.  It should be possible to compromise.  Maybe our blog could start a revolution of political discourse that is civil!



Filed under The Public Square

72 responses to “Thursday, 1/13/11, Public Square

  1. Snoring Dog Studio

    I’m with you on this – 100%. Realizing that the shooter is probably quite mentally ill should make us all much more concerned with the fact that we make it so easy for people to own guns. And it should be a difficult reminder to all of us that the mentally ill are poorly cared for in this country.

    • How correct you are that mentally ill people are poorly cared for! Misunderstood, often characterized in ways that are very unfair, shunned, ignored and made embarrassments. The best of us have to pause and remember mental illnesses are exactly that — illnesses.

      Of course if we had Medicare for all we would come closer to treating all illnesses, and all people who suffer no matter what the suffer from.

      We pay for health care for all Iraqi citizens — it was written into the Iraqi Constitution by Bush! Isn’t that acknowledgment of how important a healthy citizenry is?

  2. Watch or read the full speech President Obama made last night in Tuscon here.

    • itolduso

      Great Speech. One which should give everyone pause, and lead to reflection

    • I wish I could find the Native American blessing. I didn’t pay as close attention to that man as I want to now. It was moving, it was something I would like to see again and I would be a rapt listener!

  3. itolduso

    Shirts sit on back before memorial service
    Shirts sit on the back of chairs before a memorial service for the victims of Saturday’s shootings at McKale Memorial Center on the University of Arizona campus Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2011, in Tucson, Ariz.… Read more »
    (AP Photo/Charlie Riedel)

    Can anybody please tell me what these shirts say? My old eyes cannot read them. Please tell me they weren’t political in nature. If they were, they were in extremely poor tast, imho.

    But, I can’t tell, other than the big “Together We Thrive”, what the rest says

    • This is an exercise in the blind leading the blind 😉

      I think the smaller words are Tuscon America

      I don’t think they are political in nature. I’m going with that!

  4. Is it as cold today as it was those two days they dismissed school for it being too cold to wait at bus stops? I haven’t actually checked the temp or the wind chill, but I just now stepped out to put letters on the mailbox on the porch and the wind caught me in it’s chill! Brrrrrrr. I hope the roads are in better shape and the school buses didn’t make kids wait this morning!

    • 6176746f6c6c65

      At 6 a.m., the temp was +1° F; at 7 a.m., the temp was +12° F. Not sure about wind chill, but felt (subjectively) much warmer at 7:30 a.m. Roads (at least in my area) very much improved as well.

    • itolduso

      I am ready for April.

    • My kids in Boston tell me to ‘quit your bitchin.’

      Although, they are so prepared in the Northeast! I saw a reporter yesterday talking about the fact that school was dismissed one day in the Boston area and contrasting that to the fact that the Atlanta schools were still closed many days later. No comparison between the two would be fair! Would it be smart for Atlanta to invest in the equipment Boston has? Not yet it wouldn’t! Will climate change make that a possibility? I think it could.

    • wicked

      I saw a girl, probably middle school age, waiting for a bus this morning. She didn’t look like she was enjoying it at all, as she huddled inside her coat.

  5. itolduso

    I think the smaller words are Tuscon America

    I don’t think they are political in nature. I’m going with that!
    A larger picture I found shows that it says:

    Together We Thrive: Tucson & America

    Not sure anything was appropriate at a Memorial Service, but I don’t see any harm, or apparent political posturing either, so as far as I am concerned, no harm, no foul. Moving on

  6. fragotwofortwo

    By Matt Stoller, the former Senior Policy Advisor for Rep. Alan Grayson. His Twitter feed is @matthewstoller

    Since the 1970s, Democratic elites have focused on breaking public sector unions and financializing the economy. Carter, not Reagan, started the defense build-up. Carter, not Reagan, lifted usury caps. Carter, not Reagan, first cut capital gains taxes. Clinton, not Bush, passed NAFTA. It isn’t the base of the Democratic party that did this, but then, voters in America have never had a lot of power because they are too disorganized. And there wasn’t a substantial grassroots movement to challenge this, either.

    Obama continues this trend. It isn’t that he’s not fighting, he fights like hell for what he wants. He whipped incredibly aggressively for TARP, he has passed emergency war funding (breaking a campaign promise) several times, and nearly broke the arms of feckless liberals in the process. I mean, when Bernie Sanders did the filiBernie, Obama flirted with Bernie’s potential 2012 GOP challenger. Obama just wants policies that cement the status of a aristocratic class, with crumbs for everyone else (Republican elites disagree in that they hate anyone but elites getting crumbs). And he will fight for them.

    There is simply no basis for arguing that Democratic elites are pursuing poor strategy anymore. They are achieving an enormous amount of leverage within the party. Consider the following. Despite Obama violating every core tenet of what might have been considered the Democratic Party platform, from supporting foreclosures to destroying civil liberties to torturing political dissidents to wrecking unions, Obama has no viable primary challenger. Moreover, no Senate Democratic incumbent lost a primary challenge in 2010, despite a horrible governing posture. Now THAT is a successful strategy, it minimized the losses of the Democratic elite and kept them firmly in control of the party. Thus, the political debate remains confined to what neoliberals want to talk about. It’s a good strategy, it’s just you are the one the strategy is being played on.

    • I can see the truth in that op-ed piece.

      There are a percentage of people who vote for the little letter beside the name so Obama has those who will always vote for the “D” after the name. Compare Obama to anyone who has been mentioned as a potential Republican candidate (to this point!) and he gets all the moderate votes too. He hasn’t lost those who always vote for the person with the “R” after their name because they were never going to vote for him no matter what. Is losing the ‘liberal’ vote from those who are dissatisfied and disappointed with his agenda enough to hurt him in 2012? I don’t think so. What are those people gonna do — vote for the Republican candidate? Again, I don’t think so. They may stay home, but they aren’t going to vote for ‘less liberal than Obama.’

    • Of course we recognize this maintains the status quo of America being owned and directed by the whims and desires of the wealthy elite.

  7. itolduso

    “There are a percentage of people who vote for the little letter beside the name so Obama has those who will always vote for the “D” after the name”

    Isnt that and

    “Is losing the ‘liberal’ vote from those who are dissatisfied and disappointed with his agenda enough to hurt him in 2012”

    the same group? I think so, and you as much as admit it yourself

    “What are those people gonna do — vote for the Republican candidate? Again, I don’t think so”

    A good recognition of the truth. There as some who will never vote for anybody that isn;t a Democrat, there are some who will never vote for anybody who isn;t a Republican. It’s up to the rest and make things work.

    • You left out part of what I said. They may stay home. I have voted for candidates with the “R” beside their name so I guess I’m basing it on me and what I would do. I, however, would never in a million years vote for anyone who has (to this point) indicated they may run for POTUS on the GOP ticket in 2012.

    • I fall into the group who is dissatisfied and disappointed and I don’t fall into the group that will always vote for the little “D” beside the name, so I think they aren’t they same.

    • “What are those people gonna do — vote for the Republican candidate? Again, I don’t think so”

      Again, a sentence taken out of context and taking it out changes its intended meaning.

  8. I don’t know if anyone posted this link the other day or not. My thought… This is more the issue, if someone wants to assign blame. This and who’s going to foot the bill? Mental health is one of the first to get cut.

  9. itolduso

    Again, a sentence taken out of context and taking it out changes its intended meaning.

    How was it taken out of context, and changes it’s intended meaning.?

  10. itolduso

    have voted for candidates with the “R” beside their name

    I didn;t name you among those who will not vote for Republicans. So what’s your beef?” Seriously.

    • I’ve tried to explain it and obviously am unable to communicate well.

      I don’t think I’m alone. I think there are others who are both disappointed in Obama and wouldn’t vote for any of the potential GOP candidates (to this point!). In 2012 I am comparing Obama, who is not liberal enough for some, to those who have (to this point!) said they may run on the GOP ticket. Will those people vote for someone who is less liberal when their dissatisfaction comes from Obama being too moderate?

      Sorry I can’t communicate my thoughts well enough to show you the distinction I see. There isn’t much chance I’ll come up with better words to use for something I see clearly but can’t write well enough to show you.

  11. fragotwofortwo

    Since the world is awash in industrial overcapacity, speculation in commodities are the hot ticket. Look for rice to increase for sure.

    The latest disaster is unfolding in Australia, where the northeastern state of Queensland has been inundated after a month of rain, and is proving every bit the catalyst for rising commodity prices as the 2010 floods in Pakistan and the wildfires in Russia were. Flooding in Australia has roiled Asia-Pacific markets for coal, cotton, wheat and sugar.

    If weather events are increasingly disastrous in the world’s bread baskets, global warming could result in a familiar and worsening pattern: periodic collisions between Asia’s seemingly limitless demand for goods and the world’s supply of basic agricultural and energy commodities. That could send average commodity prices significantly higher, limiting economic growth and, perhaps, affecting the appetite for burning coal.

  12. itolduso

    Here are your words in context

    “Is losing the ‘liberal’ vote from those who are dissatisfied and disappointed with his agenda enough to hurt him in 2012? I don’t think so. What are those people gonna do — vote for the Republican candidate? Again, I don’t think so.”

    What did I take out of context?

  13. itolduso

    You left out part of what I said. They may stay home

    Okay, but that doesn;t change the meaning of what you said

    “What are those people gonna do — vote for the Republican candidate? Again, I don’t think so.”

    • itolduso,

      I’m sorry I am inadequate to express my thoughts. I am speaking of one presidential election — 2012, and comparing those who have suggested they may run against Obama to him. I am saying there are people who would vote for a GOP candidate who won’t vote for any of those who have been suggested as GOP candidates for 2012 (to this point!). Maybe someone will announce who will be attractive to the people disappointed in Obama who would vote for some GOP candidate who was less radical, more moderate, more comparable to Obama.

      Maybe you see someone who has been mentioned as a 2012 candidate for POTUS on the GOP ticket as being comparable to Obama. I don’t. Maybe that’s where the diagreement comes in.

      I can’t understand why you don’t understand what I’m saying. You can’t understand why I don’t understand what you’re saying. I am admitting right now that I’m out of words to say it better or differently so I highly doubt I will ever be able to satisfy your understanding.

  14. itolduso

    “Will those people vote for someone who is less liberal when their dissatisfaction comes from Obama being too moderate? ”

    Of course not. They will never vote for the Republican candidate, because the Republican party nominee will never be more liberal than Obama.

    Your point, and your reasoning were completely clear, I did not take it out of context, and you meant exactly what you said. that “What are those people gonna do — vote for the Republican candidate? Again, I don’t think so.”

    So, those who will always vote for the D candidate and those who will “stay home” because of their dissatisfaction in a “moderate” candidate such as Obama are all one group—-the group that will never vote for the Republican candidate. Nothing at all taken out of context. Nothing.

  15. itolduso

    As a side note to all that. You position is certainly your right, and it is certainly your obligation to vote the way you see fit. As far as I am concerned, your solemn right. Just as those who will never vote for anyone more liberal than President Obama.

  16. itolduso

    sorry, solemn right should be solemn right and duty.

  17. Arguing semantics takes ALL the fun out of blogging for me.

    You make me feel angry. I don’t like feeling angry. Now, before you get defensive please understand that I know my emotions are caused by me, no one else. I allow another to make me feel ______ (any emotion).

    You and I each understand our own words and you say you understand mine too, but you repeat the part you choose to repeat and an understanding that is not mine. I don’t understand your words or why you have the need to repeat parts of my words overandover. I said them all together because all together made the context of which they all fit. Taking a few out here and another few out there takes them out of context. I tell you that you took them out of context, you continue to do so, and then want to know what my beef is.

    May I tell you I have no beef. I know exactly what I meant. If my words didn’t make sense I have apologized overandover about my ability to communicate well enough that you might read what I meant. You still have a different understanding than I do of my very own words. So, it’s my fault! It’s my fault because I’m inadequate to communicate clearly! It’s my fault because you just ruined my blogging experience and I let you do that.

    I’m going away. I have no need to explain my words because I understand them and I don’t give a rat’s ass whether you ever understand them!

  18. itolduso

    I didn;t vote for either major party candidate in 2008, and if Obama is the Democratic Party nominee in 2012, he once again will not get my vote. He will not ever get my vote. Could some Democrat? Possibly. I would have most likely voted for Hillary Clinton over McCain.

  19. itolduso

    “I don’t give a rat’s ass whether you ever understand them”

    I understand that completely.

  20. fragotwofortwo

    I don’t consider Obama to be a liberal. He is a member of the Rubin, Summers and Geitner school of thought. A neoliberal if you will. He has sold us a bill of goods that does not exist. People like me will not vote for him again. If a good alternative does not come up by 2012 I simply will not vote.

    • Of course, Obama isn’t a liberal! But he sure sounded like one back in 2008, didn’t he? We should make another check mark in the column of you can’t always believe everything they say. That column is getting really long and filled with check marks! 🙂

    • I can’t be as definite as you, frago. I don’t know if I can stay home and not vote. It’s not something I’ve ever done, and I don’t know if it’s something I would ever be able to do. Not voting is very close to casting your vote for someone who may be the last person you want elected. In my case I will probably cast my vote for the better of two poor choices.

      We’ll hope together that candidate appears who isn’t yet on the radar that I’ve seen or heard about.

  21. itolduso

    Sorry to have made you feel angry. Not my intent. But hey, you have a great day. I will get off here so you can have a better one than now. You can go back to enjoying blogging and saying whatever it is you have a desire to say.


    • I carefully explained that I allowed you to make me feel angry! Again, you must argue and assign your understanding to my words.

      I won’t ever again allow you to make me feel anger! I will say what I have a desire to say, and I won’t feel the need to make explanations. I hope all bloggers say what they desire to say but avoid picking on what anyone else says. Each person should have the right to their opinion while respecting that right for everyone. I will attempt to answer questions and make clarifications. But when it gets to the point that I’ve tried and not met with success I will realize there are people who make attempts to clarify an exercise in futility.

  22. fragotwofortwo

    Are you a Jehovah’s Witness I always feel like you are trying to convert us heathen liberals.
    That’s the way I feel now. I’m sure around Nov. Mr.Obama will start pandering to the {sank tow moan e us } liberal members of the crowd. I ‘m really not interested in supporting an aristocracy of either party.
    I do think the proles are making the ruling class a little nervous though, nice to see them sweat.

  23. Here is a ‘take’ I hadn’t ever heard and found interesting:

    Palin’s effectiveness at grabbing headlines is unparalleled, one GOP strategist says. The former Alaska governor and 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee “is now the dominant media presence on the Republican/Tea Party front,” GOP strategist John Feehery told the Associated Press. “She can make news quicker and more effectively than any other conservative Republican.”

    “But the format in which she makes news is an issue. Republican Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey, who says he’s not interested in running for president next year, told The New York Times that Palin’s venue for communicating her thoughts about the Arizona rampage — through a scripted video released on her Facebook page — won’t stand with voters who want to see politicians for themselves and the way they act in the public arena.

    “People need to be judged by the way they conduct themselves in the public arena, in a way that is as minimally staged as possible,” Christie said. “If Gov. Palin never does any of those things, she’ll never be president, because people in America won’t countenance that. They just won’t.”

    I hope she branches out, because I do think she should be encouraged. She shows the GOP in the worst light possible.

    • itolduso

      On the other hand, many, if not most of us, within the GOP thinks she should just go away, as a carriacture of anything serious. We don;t wish the GOP to be shown in the worst possible light.

  24. Prairie Pond

    Here’s a link to the Native American Blessing, and an interesting piece about how the wingnut media went off on it.

    • Thank you, PrairiePond! Here is Carlos Gonzales (wanted it here on our site where I can find it and listen)

    • A portion of one of the comments at the link PrairiePond provided:

      “…It was apparently was some sort of Yaqui Indian tribal thing, with lots of references to “the creator” but no mention of God…”


    • Most of the comments are a lesson in intolerance. Sad.

    • Zippy

      Sigh. . .I didn’t even read the link. I can guess.

      I guess they missed the part where Carlos said he was a fifth-generation Tucsconian.

      Maybe you have to live here to get it.

      As for me, I’m still processing how to respond to it all. I think Jon Stewart’s comments on Monday night were a good start. There is no way of knowing what finalized the decision for this obviously disturbed young man.

      But shouldn’t it be a bit easier to tell the crazy people from the rest of us?

    • indypendent

      Zippy – can I assume you live in Tucson? My husband was offered a job in Tucson about 20 years ago but we decided to come back to the midwest. We did visit Tuscon and I thought it was a beautiful city.

      I remember sitting in a restaurant in Albuquerque New Mexico one day when a Native American family came in. The entire family was dressed in authentic Native American attire. My two kids were only 5 and 7 at the time and I remember their faces lighting up with all sorts of inquiring questions with the goal of learning.

      I also remember watching some of the other white people in the restaurant and their faces were not exactly wanting to ask questions to learn of someone else’s culture. Their faces were more of disdain and the ‘hurry up and get out of here’ look. As they were hurrying to leave, their whispers were very noticeable.

      My kids also saw the look on alot of those white faces and heard the whispers. And for the first time, my kids knew what discrimination looked like.

      Why can’t the world be like young children before the hatred and prejudice enters people’s souls and psyche?

    • wicked

      Yes, I’m sure those of the Jewish faith would have enjoyed much more a Christian based prayer, mentioning Jesus repeatedly. /sarcasm

      What is it about so many Christians that they can’t keep from putting down every other religion in the world, yet ask them a simple question about their religion, and they inform you in no uncertain terms that you’re going to hell? Could it be because they, also, don’t have all the answers?

  25. Here’s one that is different than too many of them:

    “To mock the opening prayer is just beyond the pale. These people are so god-damn clueless about other cultures even within our own boarders. That’s the problem with these right wing nuts, they think that if it’s not acceptable to their cultural view and what they feel, then it’s somehow foreign. Never mind the fact that native American’s and their traditions have been in that region long before the “white man”. These people are so out of touch with reality it’s almost comical. Unfortunately, their ignorance has real world consequences on real world people.”

  26. itolduso

    Are you a Jehovah’s Witness


  27. itolduso

    Are you a heathen liberal?

  28. itolduso

    After listening to the blessing by Carlos Gonzalez, I think it a bit odd choice, only because I haven;t heard of any of the victims as being Yaqui. Other than that, and the fact that in my opinion he talked to much about himself, I think it was fine. I have no problem with it. I have been to memorial services for people of many different faiths, and no faith. I accept such blessings in the way that they are offered, in faith, and with good will. Those who do otherwise, in my opinion, are at the very least, disrespectful. Disrespectful for those speaking, and to those for whom the memorial service is given.

  29. tehe tehe Really! The freedom of screech! 🙂

    Why can comedians see more clearly than others? Maybe they call themselves comedians so they may speak freely and then call it comedy—life–liberty-and-the-pursuit-of-angriness?xrs=share_fb

  30. fragotwofortwo

    January 13, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    Are you a heathen liberal?

    Thanks for asking. Why yes I am. Without me, the pundit class would have no one to bitch about. Fox news could not exist, they should send me royalty checks. The social conservatives would have no one to fear. I am member of the unholy trinity, godless liberals, gays and Muslims. I fill the empty spot in your lives.

    • itolduso


      Being ” a godless liberal, gay and Muslim” all at once must be tough. 🙂

      Sorry, I don’t have an empty spot. But thank you for thinking about me!!! 🙂

    • WOW! I am impressed! I also understand that you didn’t say you were all three, only that there was the unholy trinity and what comprised it.

    • It’s fairly easy to understand written words when you read them all in context!

  31. fragotwofortwo

    “Sorry, I don’t have an empty spot. But thank you for thinking about me!!!”

    If you say so and your most welcome.

  32. indypendent

    A portion of one of the comments at the link PrairiePond provided:

    “…It was apparently was some sort of Yaqui Indian tribal thing, with lots of references to “the creator” but no mention of God…”


    If someone does not like the references to ‘the creator’ – then this person will not like the Founding Fathers either.

  33. indypendent

    I find the Native American rituals to be more spiritual than any other organized religion.

    I mean seriously – have you ever heard of a Native American preacher passing the collection plate or driving a new Mercedes Benz???

  34. indypendent

    I think Gov Christie is correct in his assessment of Sarah Palin.

    But what is even more interesting is the fact that John Boehner did not even attend the memorial servicve in Tucson. Boehner was offered to ride on Air Force One. But I guess Johnny B had a cocktail party to go to.

    Just hours after blubbering on the House floor about one of his colleagues Gabby Giffords, this man does not have the class and dignity to attend the memorial service?

    All the crying in the world will not make up for having no class.

    And I think this kind of obivously not caring how it looked – adn with SArah Palin and her band of perpetual victims – the GOP’s chances of taking the White House are looking slimmer and slimmer by the day.

    And this is only the first week of the NEW and Improved GOP-controlled House. Just wait until they make their budget cuts to all those social programs.

  35. indypendent

    Why can’t people of all religions just leave the other guy alone?

    But I guess that would be impossible for thos evangelical christians because then they could not feel superior to those godless liberals, gays and Muslims.

    • I wonder that too. Maybe some judge others because it’s too painful to look at improvements needed within themselves. I will never run out of work needed to improve me, but it is so hard to do!

      Because we’re imperfect?

  36. Flashbacks and Lingering Questions for Survivors

    TUCSON — Randy Gardner had stopped by Representative Gabrielle Giffords’s community event on Saturday to thank her for supporting the health care overhaul when he heard the “boom, pop, pop, pop” and the cries of the wounded. Ducking for cover, he found the scene more than terrifying. He found it unbelievably familiar.

    Mr. Gardner, 60, had survived a shooting once before. On May 4, 1970, he was a student at Kent State University when members of the Ohio National Guard opened fired on students protesting the Vietnam War, killing four people. He was in the crowd that day and ran for his life, 75 yards, before diving to the ground.

    It was a landmark event for the country, but for Mr. Gardner it was a personal tragedy that stole a young woman from his English class, Allison Krause. And Saturday’s killings, which left him with a bullet through the right foot, took him right back.

    “These types of experiences,” he said, “you change.”

  37. Zippy

    Wow. This says more than I could say.

    From Politico, not exactly a left-wing site.
    By JOHN BRESNAHAN | 1/12/11 6:44 PM EST

    Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) turned down an offer by President Barack Obama to travel on Air Force One to Arizona for a memorial service on behalf of the victims of Saturday’s shooting, a decision that has upset some Democrats.

    Boehner is instead scheduled to attend a reception on Wednesday night on behalf of Maria Cino, a former top House GOP aide who is seeking the Republican National Committee chairmanship. Boehner is backing Cino’s challenge to current RNC Chairman Michael Steele.

    Read more:

    Really? A reception?

    Please, somebody tell me Politico made this up.

    • No, it wasn’t made up. I’ve heard it called a cocktail party, reception and fund raiser — whatever you call it, his choice was telling, wasn’t it!?

    • prairie pond

      Hi Zippy! I just wondered about you on the Friday thread, came over here, and here you are. Good to see you. You’ve been on my mind.

  38. Zippy

    Hi Prairiepond. We keep missing each other, but I was always more a late-nite poster, and it’s exacerbated by the time difference.

    Yeah, Indydependent, a Kansas rube in desert heat. Gabby Giffords was running for Congress when I showed up.

    I still have Gabe Zimmerman’s card, though I can’t claim to have really known either of them. Poor Gabe. Only 30.