Tuesday, 1/11/11, Public Square

“The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism – ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.” Franklin D. Roosevelt


Filed under The Public Square

116 responses to “Tuesday, 1/11/11, Public Square

  1. I don’t have an update on tosmart that is more than second hand, but what his relatives are saying sounds good so I’m going to share.

    He made it through the night his son says. One suggested her Mom (who is at the hospital) told her he had tried to regain consciousness and was sedated.

    Does that indicate increased brain activity? I don’t know, I just know machines are doing the work of his lungs and heart and they were watching the brain activity. When or if I hear anything I will share it. No news is good news! I suggest we all do exactly what Mrs. tosmart asked — PRAY, send good energy and keep him and his in your thoughts.

    I’m sitting on my hands so I don’t call and disturb them. Patience isn’t one of my strong suits, but they’re all waiting and I’ll wait with them.

  2. prairie pond

    I’m just in shock. If anyone from his family reads here, just know I hold him, and the Mrs., in my heart as two of the finest people I’ve ever met. He’s just so, so, SO special, and so is she. I’ll send all the good thoughts I can muster. He has such a special way of sharing what is in that big heart of his. Let’s not forget he’s a tough guy and he loves his family so much, I know if anyone can pull through this, he’s the one.

    Fnord, “they also serve who stand and wait.” I’m sure they know.

  3. I know how interested all of us are about education, so I know you’ll appreciate these success stories! Note, the first story is from a local science teacher, Janice Crowley, who I’ve had the pleasure of knowing for most of her teaching career. My son credits her teaching skills as part of his success. The second success story made my heart warm!


  4. One more on our kids that I found interesting (thus I always think YOU may too). 🙂

    Here’s what one of my grandsons (who shared this with me originally) asks: “I think this is pretty true, what do you think? We created a generation of kids who can’t work with their hands. Someone says build a car from scrap, I say sure, I could do that, might take some time, but sure. How many people are now saying “Not in my lifetime” to even much simpler endeavors? I don’t blame the kids school is pumping out, but I am worried that this empowerment “you can do anything attitude” America is known for actually is created through classes like this… It doesn’t matter that you can actually build a car or not, but just having the go get it done attitude to go take on whatever project you do ultimately want to accomplish with your life.”


    • indypendent

      I think we are seeing a generation of kids that have not had to build anything from scratch. We’ve had such tremendous technology in the past few decades that no one really has to make anything any more

      Just look at the cars. It used to be where the owner could keep their car tuned up, do maintenance jobs,etc. Since the computer technology has been standard in the newer cars, what average guy can keep and maintain their car nowadays without taking it to the mechanic?

      How much impact as the No Child Left Behind had on the creativity of our students? Are they taught to even think for themselves, think outside box or are they taught to simply study to get the test answers correctly?

      Lastly, I believe that people are either born with the gene that allows them to be able to make things. My son is one of those people who can fix most anything (except the newer cars -which is why prefers to restore the older cars). When he was 4 yrs old, he took scrap wood, metal and wheels and made himself a wagon. And this wagon worked for many, many years.

      I think that ability was passed down from my father – who is the same type.

      I know that mechanical ability did not come from my husband, because he is more of the 3-piece suit type that can make a business profitable even in bad times but could never change the oil in our car or to make anything for the house – such as shelves, etc. That is why I knew to just call the mechanic or the local handyman first in order to save money while my husband (bless his soul) tried to ‘fix’ something.

    • 6176746f6c6c65

      My wife had that gene, indy, transmitted to her from her father. I don’t have (and never did have) it. Oh, I can stand/sit there and visualize what needs to be done, how to do it; but actually doing it, well…..

      I took shop in high school; made a D,only because it was decided that it wasn’t appropriate to give an F to a student that had perfect papers on all written exams.

    • indypendent

      6176 – so you know what I mean huh?

      BTW – I suspect that my 4-yr-old granddaughter (my son’s first child) also has that gene. Her favorite thing to to do is to help daddy fix things. She even has her own toolbelt with smaller sized tools. And she is pretty good at knowing which tool is used for certain jobs.

      I wonder if your little granddaughter got the gene from her grandmother? Time will tell.

    • wicked

      Considering that I repaired our leaking toilet over the weekend, I’d say I have that gene you’re talking about. Believe me, everything was against me. The plastic nut holding the water line into the toilet would NOT unscrew under any circumstances. I cut it in half with a small hacksaw, then discovered that the supply line had a flanged end, which the new nut would not fit. At midnight I was at WM to correct that problem. But it’s fixed and done correctly now. Plus, no plumber was needed.

  5. david B

    Best and warmest wished to all.

  6. fragotwofortwo

    Sorry to hear about tosmart hope he recovers.

    I subscribe to make magazine, wonderful publication great blog very inspiring stuff.
    “Void your warranty, violate a user agreement, fry a circuit, blow a fuse, poke an eye out. Make: The risk-takers, the doers, the makers of things… Welcome to Make: Online!”
    Something make inspired me to do,

    plus anything I do for myself, I withhold funds from the man. Starve the beast, stick it to the man.

  7. I read an op-ed piece that had some good advice for Palin. Her supporters will rally to her defense no matter what but to attract others she really will need to think about the fact that an elected official serves more than just their supporters.

    “You can’t put the actions of this insane person on her doorstep or anyone’s doorstep,” he said in Palin’s defense. But he added, “Having said that, there’s a difference between how people judge the conduct of a blogger and a political leader or someone who may want to run for president of the United States.”


    Although I agree a blogger doesn’t have the ear of the public like Palin, media types and politicians, we can do our part to tone it down and make our interactions more civil.

    • indypendent

      You know, if these Christian Conservatives would actually read their Bible, it tells us that we should turn the other cheek. It also tells us to be kind to our enemies.

      But I must confess, I have had my moments of heated debate on this blog. It is usually when I feel someone is trying to prove they are more patriotic than I am by all their and/or their family’s service.

      And yes, I do point out the fact that I distrust the Religioius Right – but that is not using gun language and that is what the theme I’ve heard coming from the right.

    • itolduso

      iberals may be making the wild stretch of blaming Sarah Palin for Saturday’s shooting of Arizona Democratic Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, but one of the Internet’s most popular progressive activist sites targeted Giffords for electoral defeat in 2008 in much the same way as Palin’s “cross-hairs” map did in 2010 — with Daily Kos founder and publisher Markos Moulitsas even using the term “bull’s-eye.”

      On the day of the shooting, the Hillbuzz.org website reproduced screen grabs of Moulitsas’ posting, noting that “Daily Kos targeted Gabrielle Giffords with a ‘bulls eye’ back in June of 2008.”

      Moulitsas was incensed at Giffords and 104 other House Democrats
      he accused of having just “sold out the Constitution” by voting for amending and enhancing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The legislative revision retroactively protected telecommunications companies from being sued for facilitating government monitoring of suspected terrorists’ phone calls and e-mails.

      “Who to primary?” Moulitsas asked using his famous username “kos.”

      “Well, I’d argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week.” According to Moulitsas, “This vote certainly puts a bull-s-eye on their district.”

      Read more on Newsmax.com: Daily Kos ‘Bull’s-Eyed’ Giffords for Defeat
      Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama’s Re-Election? Vote Here Now!

      he Hillbuzz site also reproduced a Democratic Party U.S. map using bull’s-eye symbols to denote vulnerable states that were almost identical to the cross hairs denoting vulnerable congressional districts featured in the SarahPac U.S. map for which Palin is being criticized.

      The Democratic map is entitled “Targeting Strategy” and features a captioned entitled “BEHIND ENEMY LINES.” The bull’s-eye symbols were placed on nine states that President George W. Bush narrowly won in 2004.

      “Democrats use ‘bull’s-eye’ targets extensively in their political graphics,” the website noted. “This map shows states Democrats want targeted. Arizona, which Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords represents, is surrounded by these targets.” On the Palin map, three Arizona congressional districts featured targets.”


    • indypendent

      Did the liberals use the phrase – don’t retreat, reload?

      Or that the Constitution gives citizens the Second Amendment remedy to turn our country around?

      Like I stated yesterday – this hate rhetoric is on both sides. But when comparing the volume of that rhetoric – the right comes out on top – IMHO

      For example – I heard on the 700 Club this morning that the AZ sheriff is now the bad guy because he is a DEMOCRAT and had a political agenda when he said what he did about all the anti-government rhetoric.

      The sheriff said that was HIS opinion and I can see where he is coming from and why he said that.

      He and his fellow law enforcement people are the ones having to deal with and live with the consequences of all this anti-government rhetoric.

      Also on the 700 Club this morning, it was pointed out that the alleged shooter was a liberal and a registered Independent. He was registered as an independent but when does a liberal hate the government? According to the Conservatives, all liberals LOVE the government because we are leeches.

      the 700 Club cannot have it both ways. But I suspect it was CYA time for them, as well.

    • Sure a bunch more “Independents” today then not so long ago. As we’ve discussed here many times, political ‘parties’ have changed from what they were a few years ago.

    • Sounds like both the Hillbuzz site and DailyKos have been as guilty as Fox News of hate-filled rhetoric. Fox News and their listeners will point out they are the most listened to. Therefore is it fair to say their rhetoric is heard by more people than have read either the Hillbuzz site or DailyKos? I have no idea! I don’t read either place and I don’t listen to Fox News. I do hear and read what Fox News has said because it is so often very outrageous and thus repeated. The more outrageous the more likely it is to be repeated.

  8. When they learned the Phelps / WBC would be picketing the funeral of the nine-year-old girl, this is what they decided to do.

    They’re planning an “angel action” — with 8- by 10-foot “angel wings” worn by participants and used to shield mourners from pickets.


    • indypendent

      this is a great idea. Kinda like those Egyptian Muslims forming a human shield to defend those Christians.

      It is about time the grown ups take charge of this world.

  9. itolduso

    “Like I stated yesterday – this hate rhetoric is on both sides. But when comparing the volume of that rhetoric – the right comes out on top – IMHO”

    BUt of course it does. I wouldn;t have guessed any other way.

  10. indypendent

    BTW – I stated yesterday that I don’t think Sarah Palin’s rhetoric or any other right’s rhetoric was what pulled the trigger in the AZ shooting.

    But all that hate rhetoric and gun language used for their 30-second soundbites cannot help the situation.

    • itolduso

      Just as well blame it on the hper violent video games on the market today. WHere the only answer, and the only win, is to kill indiscrimately.

    • indypendent

      I commented about our society seems to be more obsessesed with violence, hate and being rude just a few days ago.

      I also made the comment about our television viewing. With a constant 24/7 diet of violence, hate, people behaving like they are on the Jerry Springer show – is it any wonder we see tragedies like the AZ shooting?

      But I remember all the hate Tipper Gore faced when she was pushing to get all this crap labeled as violent and/or sexual. She was demonized for it.

      but what good will labeling something be if parents (and some of those are from those godly homes) allow their kids to buy the crap? I know adult so-called religious people who watch those t.v. reality shows where it is nothing but bullies and their daily drama of smacking somebody down adn these people think it is funny entertainment.

      How can we expect the kids to be any different?

  11. indypendent

    I’ve noticed one of the Conservative talking points about the AZ shooter is that he was mentally ill (which he certainly sounds like he was) and where was the help he needed?

    Well, I have a question for all those TEa party Republican Conservatives – who is going to be the first in that group to actually want to pay taxes to provide help for the mentally ill?

    I remember Ronald Reagan emptied out the mental hospitals and cut social programs in order to cut the budget. But then Reagan turned around and increased the deficit by increasing the military budget.

    So, again, I ask – who on the Conservative side of the political aisle will be the first to step up to the plate and actually be willing to pay taxes to provide help for the mentally ill?

  12. itolduso

    I remember Ronald Reagan emptied out the mental hospitals and cut social programs in order to cut the budget.

    Please explain, explicity, how so. What did Ronal Reagan do to empty out the mental hospitals, and how did he cut social programs? Was this as governor? As President? Please explain.

    • indypendent

      As president -do some research.

      The mental hospitals were closed down. Some of those patients went to nursing homes (of which I know that for a fact because we worked that business for 30+ years).

      Some of those patients wound up in prison.

      Some of those patients are the chronic homeless.

      And what did we get for all those budget cuts? A higher deficit and some very happy militaray defense contractors.

  13. indypendent

    Here is the link to the 700 Club and their remarks that I was referring to earlier:


  14. Palin, or those she has allowed to speak for her, attempts to say those weren’t bulls eyes but surveyor’s symbols must remember it wasn’t an isolated usage and most of what she says and writes is all over the news, repeated often enough that they can’t erase everything. In their attempts to change the story they highlight and bring greater attention to what they want to deny. I’ve seen this tactic employed by most politicians — the attempts to change, amend, cover up — and I always wonder what makes them think we’re going to fall for it? I respect the few times a politician admits ‘charges.’ It tells me they realize they are humans and like all of us they have room for improvements. Think back on how often the ‘cover up’ caused more problems than the original ‘deed.’

    Palin ‘tweeted’ on Nov. 4th: “Remember months ago “bullseye” icon used 2 target the 20 ‘Obamacare-lovin’ incumbent seats? We won 18 out of 20 (90% success rate; T’aint bad)

    • indypendent

      If I remember correctly, didn’t Pompeo use some sort of similar language in a political and to take aim at Jean Schodorf?

    • One of those well-funded political action committees who don’t have to identify themselves did. Today’s candidates don’t have to do their own dirty work — Citizens United ensured that!

  15. itolduso

    Wow. An editorial. Although it does have some factual information. Perhaps I didn;t read it thoroughly. Please point out those section that deal with the mentally ill, and kicking them out of hospitals.

    • indypendent

      Reagan while governor of CA did empty out their mental hospitals and carried that idealogy into the White House – where he had a lot of help from so-called Religious Righties who hate social programs. With all thost budget cuts to social programs – where was the money for mental hospitals?

      Reagan was no friend of the working man, the poor, the sick (including mental illness) needing health care.

      But those miliary defense contractors sure did love the guy.

      I suspect I could post a video of Reagan telling you personally that he did help empty out those mental hospitals – but I’m sure even that would not satisfy your need for proof that the old Gipper was not that great of a guy.

    • indypendent

      Just another one of those links that – no doubt- will be questioned in accuracy.

      After all, it does not paint Reagan as the Saint of all Saints.

    • Reagan is a president that history is proving to be less than once thought. The recent Great Recession showed how poorly his economic policies played out. It didn’t take that long for me to be aware of his failings, but some have come to that realization more slowly.

    • indypendent

      Reagan had the gift of the silver tongue and he was also a Hollywood actor.

      He made everyone think they were doing good. Now that is the trait of a great CON man.

  16. indypendent

    As I mentioned before – we have worked the nursing home business and we saw the jump in the mentally ill patients being sent for admission during the 80’s.

    Have YOU ever worked in the nursing home business? /

    What is really troubling was how were nursing homes supposed to care fo the mentally ill patient when the focus of nursing homes was initially geared towards grandma and grandpa needing care because they could not take care of themselves at home.

    Then we saw the onslaught of corporations getting into the business of buying up nursing homes – that was something else in the 80’s. It was all about how to get rich off the government dime. Corporations billed the govenrment for the care, took their share off the top and then doled back what was left to run the nursing home. Some corporations cared about the quality of care and others did not.

  17. itolduso

    Have YOU ever worked in the nursing home business? /

    No. I have not. However, I was intimately aware of the workings of the Nursing Home in our community.

    • indypendent

      And we were in multiple communities in different states – and they were all facing the same situation.

  18. itolduso

    Mixed readings



    The simple fact is, the biggest reason why mentally ill people are not “kept” is because it is against the law, for the most part. Reagan had little to do with it, other than sign the legislatiion for the state of California. Later, during the Carter administration, federal laws were passed after a lawsuit.

    Too bad. In wanting to do good, they lessened patient care. A HISTORY lesson everyone should keep in mind.

    • indypendent

      While the initial in wanting to do good was to get those mentally ill patients who could possibly live in the community out of the mental hospitals, Reagan came in with his budget cuts to the social programs – so where was the money for the community-based mental health care?

      This is a HISTORY lesson everyone should keep in mind.

    • indypendent

      My, oh my, a factor in homelessness is mental illness.

    • indypendent

      Note – homelessness grew in the 80’s due to housing and social cuts and the economy. Reagan was president from 1980 to 1988 – a good chunk of that rise in homelessness was on Reagan’s watch. I wonder how many were mentally ill people?

  19. indypendent

    While I can understand why Republicans are so desperate in keeping Ronald Reagan’s legacy as pristine as the white snow, there is a limit as to how much one can overlook when it came to Reagan.

    Why does Reagan get a free pass in raising the deficit but Obama can’t. Even Dick Cheney said that Reagan proved deficits don’t matter.

    And then there is a matter of that Iran-Contra affair – that Reagan conviently could not remember…..

  20. indypendent

    fnord – didn’t you comment yesterday about the paranoia of gun supporters reacting to the government coming to take their guns?

    Well, it seems in AZ – these folks are buying the gun stores out of the glock pistol….


    • indypendent

      I guess this is the Republican’s version of gun control laws – to make it illegal to carry a gun within 1000 feet of a government official.

      Any person intending to shoot any government official will probably not be counting off to make sure they are outside of that 1000 feet perimeter.

      Seriously, folks, we do not need more gun control laws on the books. We need to get out of this gun mentality that America seems to have.

      And the mentality that a gun is a way to settle differences and/or disputes.

      That is what is needed – not some silly law keeping people 1000 feet away from someone.

    • I’d like to see the assault weapons ban renewed. I’ve read that it was enacted for only 10 years and expired in 2005.

      Yes, I’ve seen indications too many see just that one single issue as reason to get involved politically and it seems they believe everything good about Republicans and everything bad about democrats — mainly that republicans protect their rights and democrats don’t. It’s been proven this isn’t true but even those who aren’t single-issue voters will say something like, “Well, they didn’t pass new gun-control laws ONLY because they know they can’t.” Kinda lame excuse they’ve sold themselves. If something can’t be done why in the world is a rational person worrying about it? ANYTHING is possible, but much of what paranoid gun nuts spread around as truth is gross exaggerations.

      Our friend, tosmart, can tell you he believed it all hook line and sinker during the Clinton years. Then he did his own research and found out the exact opposite of what all the gun nuts were telling him was true. He began paying attention and gathering actual facts which belied the propaganda they were spreading. It was when he became more than a one-issue voter he always says.

  21. itolduso

    Ex-Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pa., pens an op-ed in the New York Times today about the proper political response to this weekend’s tragedy. I wholeheartedly support the former Congressman (Kanjorski lost his seat in November) when he argues that, following this weekend’s shooting, Congressman need to remain open and accessible to the public. However, Kanjorski is rather hypocritical when he climbs up on his soapbox:

    We all lose an element of freedom when security considerations distance public officials from the people. Therefore, it is incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect in which political discourse can flow freely, without fear of violent confrontation.

    Incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect? Congressman heal thyself! Yesterday, I noted that, according to the Scranton Times, Kanjorski said this about Florida’s new Republican Governor Rick Scott on October 23:

    “That Scott down there that’s running for governor of Florida,” Mr. Kanjorski said. “Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he’s running for governor of Florida. He’s a millionaire and a billionaire. He’s no hero. He’s a damn crook. It’s just we don’t prosecute big crooks.”

    I’ll give Kanjorski the benefit of the doubt that he did not literally mean Scott schould be killed. Regardless, Kanjorski’s way over the rhetorical line compared to the kinds of statements liberals are pointing to as evidence that Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh are creating a “climate of hate,” to borrow Paul Krugman’s phrase. And somehow I doubt that there would have been crickets from the national media if a Republican politician called for a Democratic candidate to be shot barely a week before the election.

    Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/dem-congressman-who-called-gop-gov-be-put-against-wall-and-shot-n#ixzz1AlQxIpLh

    • It is a good thing Mr. Kanjorski lost his bid last fall. If he thinks it’s acceptable to even say such things as “Put him against the wall and shoot him,” he shouldn’t ‘represent’ anyone but himself and he does that poorly.

    • It is my hope that people who speak like this continue to lose elections! I also hope those who make their living off political commentary and do it by using hate-filled words lose their readers / viewers / supporters.

  22. indypendent

    This certainly did not help the situation Arizona. No wonder the sheriff said what he did. He probably knew that the anti-government rhetoric 24/7 and these mentally ill patients going without help was a disaster just looking for a place to land. And then to factor in Arizona anti-illegal immigration fight this summer. Tensions and emotions were probably running very high.


  23. itolduso

    But, as Romans told The Huffington Post, 2010 was a difficult year, particularly in Pima County. Last January,
    3,000 Pima residents were taken off the public mental health system’s enrollment because a diagnosis found they were not actively displaying symptoms of a serious mental illness.

    On July 1, another 3,800 county residents saw their coverage slashed because they did not fall below the federal poverty level. They were still allowed to get generic medications, but lost their case manager, their doctor and access to group therapy, as well as transportation and housing subsidies.

    How much should they make before they get off the “covered by the state”

    ANd how much should Arizona state taxes go up to pay for everything that you think the state government should for?

    • indypendent

      Do you really think all those mentally ill patients can do without their medication?

      But, hey, let Arizona live with the kind of state they are willing to pay for. And obviously, there are problems other than just the mentally ill being dropped for health care.

      There is that little matter of those transplant patients who are being told they no longer qualify due to the costs. I’ll be looking for the links on those cases.

      BTW – just who gets to determine if these folks no longer qualify for the state’s help – some politician who wants to cut the state’s budget

    • indypendent

      Here’s the link about the transplant coverage in Arizona:


  24. indypendent

    Since we are listing Democratic candidates who use violent language – let’s list some Republicans that do the same – shall we?


    • itolduso

      Sure, why not?

    • I asked yesterday for specific examples of people on the left who have a public stage, such as politicians and media people, who have used words filled with hate and threats. So far today he has brought one example of a Congress Critter who was unelected (obviously with cause so hats off to those voters!) and two media outlets — one a blog and DailyKos. What is DailyKos? Is there a term other than radical that would describe them?

    • itolduso

      However, the “armed and dangerous” remark, though bad analogy, had nothing to do with any person or persons. It had to do with policy, and as such, I would take it to mean armed with information and dangerous to “the other position” but I could be wrong. Of course, it is in the moral equivalent of “Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him” Yep

  25. itolduso

    asked yesterday for specific examples of people on the left who have a public stage, such as politicians and media people, who have used words filled with hate and threats. So far today he has brought one example

    Do you really want more? How many more? Two A dozen? Two dozen? A hundred? How many examples do you want? Seriously.

  26. itolduso

    “Do you really think all those mentally ill patients can do without their medication”

    “They were still allowed to get generic medications”

    • indypendent

      But no case manager or people to supervise they actually take their medications. No transportation to come in and get them.

      Do you even know what a mentally ill person is like when they don’t take their medication?

      It’s not pretty. I’ve worked with mentally ill patients and when they are medicated, they appear to be self sufficient people. But when they do not take their medication, they morph into a completely different person.

      maybe you and the rest of the Tea Party Republicans don’t care what kind of world we live in, but there are alot of us that do care.

      maybe that is really what this debate is about?

  27. itolduso

    “BTW – just who gets to determine if these folks no longer qualify for the state’s help – some politician who wants to cut the state’s budget”

    The people who elect the politicians.

    BTW– You never answered the question.

    • indypendent

      Oh, I see, the people who elected Jan Brewer are all in agreement that so many mentally ill patients no longer get services to make sure they get their medications.

      Is that really what you’re saying?


  28. indypendent

    Did you read the entire article? She also went on to say that Thomas Jefferson said it was good to have a revolution every now and then.

    Armed and dangerous to start a revolution by people with a fetish to dress up like Paul Revere and ride in on a horse.

    This is not going to end in a good way…

    How telling that certain ‘right’ people get free passes on their choice of words but others are held to higher standards.

    Real Christian of these folks – don’t you think?

    • itolduso

      “Do you even know what a mentally ill person is like when they don’t take their medication”

      Why yes I do. Thank you for asking.

      “maybe you and the rest of the Tea Party Republicans don’t care what kind of world we live in”

      sorry, your classification of me as a Tea Party Republican once again, shows how wrong you can be.

      I care very much. I volunteer hundres of hours in my community to make things better. I give nearly 15% of my income to charity, of which only a smart part goes to my church, and none to political parties, or candidates.
      I have served a mentor for young people in many different programs.
      COnversation ended, since it is nothing but your shrill hatred of anybody that is unlike you

  29. itolduso

    So far today he has brought one example of a Congress Critter who was unelected (obviously with cause so hats off to those voters)

    “Democrat Paul Kanjorski, a former attorney and administrative law judge, has represented the 11th Congressional District in northeastern Pennsylvania since 1985”

    “Democrat Paul Kanjorski directed millions of taxpayer dollars for a company created and run by his family.

    This video is about the case of Pennsylvania Democratic congressman Paul Kanjorski, who earmarked millions of taxpayer dollars for a company run by his family.

    In a startling interview, Joe Yudichak, who ran the non-profit Regional Equipment Center in Kanjorski’s district, says the congressman initially tried to bully him into helping Kanjorski direct the money to Kanjorski’s family members. In the documentary, Yudichak recounts his conversation with Kanjorski: “He said, ‘You’re telling me I can’t take care of my family?’ He said, ‘Well, I’m telling you, it’s gonna be done. And it’s gonna be done with you or without you.’ And he said, ‘I’ll bury you. I’ll destroy you.’”

    Kanjorski later earmarked more than $10 million directly to the company run by his family. The money was supposed to fund the development of new technologies to help turn around desperate coal towns and make them prosperous.

    The company, Cornerstone Technologies, went bankrupt.

    Harold Shobert, head of Pennsylvania State University’s Energy Institute, and a leading expert on anthracite coal, worked with Cornerstone on one project. Shobert said “It was clear that these guys were clueless as to how to do research and development,” “It was sort of like trying to collaborate with the cast of Looney Tunes”

    “11th Congressional District

    Candidate Votes Percent
    102,179 54.7%
    84,618 45.3% ”

    Apparently, 45.3% of Pennsylvania11th district thought it was AOK

  30. indypendent

    when these Social Conservative Republicans hijacked the Christian faith, that is when we started hearing how Jesus really wore the finest linen and the golden jewelry. That is also when we started hearing how Jesus really wants every follower to sit and just amass as much wealth as possible.

    I’m surprised they do not have Mary and Joseph checking into the Hilton the night Jesus was born.

    But, I’m sure that is next on their agenda.

  31. Jon Stewart took a moment to reflect on Saturday’s shootings in Arizona, saying he has no clue who’s to blame and that it’d be nice if the ramblings of the gunman didn’t resemble how people talk on TV.


  32. indypendent

    For the Conservative Right to accuse the left of politicizing the AZ shooting, this takes the cake for the Right’s Supreme Leader to be saying this:


    • indypendent

      But you know what – just let the Conervatives keep talking and digging that hole deeper.

      In case they did not notice, the fastest growing group of voters are Independents. The midterm elections were nothing new – the minorty party usually always picks up seats. So, it’s not like the country has all of a sudden joined the Republican Party’s circus.

      But just let these folks keep flapping their gums and refusing to even acknowledge for a moment that their side has also engaged in hate rhetoric.

      The bigger they all, the harder they fall.

  33. itolduso


    In the strictest sense, I have to agree. The tone of political discussion needs to be civil. You can vehemtly disagree with an indea, or even a person, without denigrating them. For any real denigration of anybody on this blog, I apologize.
    However, the perception of this blog, that the REpublicans, the “social Conservatives” the “Religous Right” and on and on is the font of all evil, is equally wrong. And all you have to do is take a walk thru here, with an open mind, and see the hateful talk of those just mentioned. Not just their ideas, but they themselves. For many, This has become what I believe it was designed to leave….a hatefest of those of a different persuasion.

    If I have been guilty of the same, I apol0gize now. ANd will not seek to do so in the future. I don;t believe I have, on a general basis. But I could always be wrong. In any case, I will try and hold my tongue from being directed towards anyone in a hateful way.

    • indypendent

      Who ever stated the Republicans, Social Conservatives and Religious Right are evil? There are many fine Republicans but alot of them have been labeled as RINOs by some of those very folks you deem to be so saintly.

      The real trouble is within the GOP – and which way the Grand Old Party wants to go.

    • indypendent

      Just so you know – I am a registered Republican and I voted for a few of those RINOs this past election.

    • Guilty as charged! I get carried away all too often. I am too human and that is sure something I need to work on. Of course I think most Republican ideas are wrong. To be honest I absolutely know some Democratic ideas are very wrong too. If only we could really talk and get rid of the chaff from every idea. I’m a dreamer, but not the only one (hat tip to John).

      Generalizations are usually wrong. No ‘label’ fits every person in any group. The religious right and social conservatives are as sure of their beliefs as I am of mine. I do long for the days when we didn’t mix civil law and religion. Others think there can be no civil law that isn’t based on religious tenants and morality comes from religion. I’ve known people who are very moral and profess no religious beliefs. Will there be a day when we respect each person’s rights to their beliefs and make no judgments on those who disagree. Probably not. We’re all sure about the facts of our beliefs therefore someone who holds an opposing opinion can’t be right as that would make us wrong, and we’re not wrong! We seem to forget that we’re not wrong for us but that doesn’t make us right for anyone else.

      When we raise our children we have dreams and hopes for them. They turn out to be the people they are and sometimes that differs from the people we dreamed and hoped for. We still love them and respect them, and usually we see that is exactly who they should be — THEMSELVES!

    • I want to add that putting all bloggers on any blog into the same category is a generalization that isn’t fair.

  34. itolduso

    “There are many fine Republicans but alot of them have been labeled as RINOs by some of those very folks you deem to be so saintly.”

    WHom do I deem to be so saintly? Be specific, and give examples of my “deeming” them so please.

    • indypendent

      Every time I say something about Reagan – doesn’t your blood pressure rise?

      Not everyone has to love Reagan. And there are alot of people who don’t.

  35. fragotwofortwo

    Really they elected this guy as governor. Another CEO that had no idea what those bastards that worked for him were up too.


    FORT MYERS (2010-6-18) –
    Two whistleblowers say the new front-runner in the Republican race for governor is lying when he says he did not know about fraud in his former company, the Columbia/HCA hospital chain.

    In July 1997, FBI agents raided Columbia/HCA accounting offices in seven states, including Florida. Within days, Columbia’s board of directors ousted Scott, but gave him a nearly $10 million severance package, including stock shares worth $300 million and a $1 million a year consulting contract.

    The company wound up paying more than $1.7 billion for defrauding the federal Medicare and Medicaid programs.

    Scott says he didn’t know about his company’s fraudulent billing practices and if he had, he’d have fired those responsible.

    But company whistleblower John Schilling of Naples says Scott must be lying.

  36. itolduso

    “Every time I say something about Reagan – doesn’t your blood pressure rise?”


    Please list those I deem to be saintly and give examples if you can where I have done so.

    • indypendent

      I am not going to get into a tit-for-tat with you today. I made my comments and listed the links.

      enough said and whatever…

  37. indypendent

    I’m sorry, but I find this so laughable. But I’m sure she has her devoted followers.

    hey, I rememer when certain religious leaders said that Katrina was God’s punishment for American tolerating homosexuals and some politicians went right along with them.


    • itolduso

      Whomever this Jacobs person is, she is unhinged. Who cares. There are nutjobs all over the place, proclaiming all sorts of things. From the left, and from the right

  38. indypendent

    How telling that one side can use phrases like armed and dangerous, Second amendment remedy, don’t retreat, reload and they are just talking about policy and don’t mean anything by their choice of words.

    But then that side picks out one phrase the other guy says to bring a gun to the fight if they have a knife and somehow that guy is the crazy killer-to-be.

    Yeah, sure…….whatever..

  39. itolduso

    “Please list those I deem to be saintly and give examples if you can where I have done so.”

    “I am not going to get into a tit-for-tat with you today. I made my comments and listed the links.

    enough said and whatever…”

    No answer. Just as I thought. Night.

    • indypendent

      go ahead and think whatever makes you feel superior…..

      if that’s what it takes…..whatever…..

  40. indypendent

    At the end of the day, the success or failure of the Republicans will be seen in the next two years. If these folks continue with the plans to cut social programs out of the budget, then I suspect they will be kicked to the curb in 2012.

    And espeically if they proceed with their plans to increase the military budget for their desired wars.

    • I disagree. I think it will come down to whether or not the country is comfortable enough to put politics back on ignore. I still think there are enough citizens to sway any election who only pay attention to politics when things are perceived to not be going well and that’s when they go vote out the current bunch. They don’t know why, they don’t want to know why. Politics is boring and unsavory and all they want is things to go smoothly.

    • We all know who did the scheming and screaming to ensure those who don’t pay attention to politics perceived things weren’t going smoothly — it was the GOP screaming about that “job-killing” health-care reform bill.

      Yes, the bill the GOP misrepresented, the one that now helps too many people for it to ever be repealed, the one that put another feather in the democrats caps. The lies about what that bill covers are still being spread. Now it employs too many people and would cost millions of dollars and jobs if it were repealed, covers people who couldn’t be covered before and drops the annual and lifetime benefits that bankrupted many while leaving them no coverage when they needed it most. The one the GOP has nothing better to replace it with! The one that passed after a century of trying and will move forward, be improved and maybe even someday be the single-payer we all deserve. Again, the Democratic Party passed legislation that helps the people.

      What was the last legislation passed by Republican majorities that helped the people? Yeah, I can’t remember either. That’s part of why they had to throw such hissy fits and make it all seem like everything was going to hell in a handbasket so they could get the attention of those who ignore. What did those who ignore do since they heard all that screaming — they voted out the guys in charge. They still didn’t know why but there was a bunch of screaming and discontent and the economy still wasn’t fixed so they did what they always do — try the other guys.

  41. fragotwofortwo

    I guess his new company is just as corrupt. Well I’m sure he’s much better than one of those socialists. Oh and best damn medical system in the whole world.


    Florida voters gave gubernatorial candidate Rick Scott the nod of approval in the November 2, 2010 elections. However, Scott who beat Alex Sink in the Florida Governor’s race, admitted to 14 counts of Medicare fraud and paid the federal government more than $600 million dollars in fines for his fraudulent billing practices.
    “In settlements reached in 2000 and 2002, Columbia/HCA rose to public attention when it pleaded guilty to 14 felonies and agreed to a $600+ million fine in what the Justice department then called the largest fraud case settled in the history of the Justice department.
    A series of New York Times articles, beginning in 1996, began scrutinizing Columbia/HCA’s business and Medicare billing practices. These culminated in the company being raided in July 1997 by Federal agents searching for documents. Among the crimes uncovered were doctors being offered financial incentives to bring in patients, falsifying diagnostic codes to increase reimbursements from Medicare and other government programs, and billing the government for unnecessary lab tests.Following the raids, the Columbia/HCA board of directors forced Scott to resign as Chairman and CEO. He was paid $9.88 million in a settlement. He also left owning 10 million shares of stock worth over $350 million, mostly from his initial investment In 1999, Columbia/HCA changed its name back to HCA, Inc.”

    Continue reading on Examiner.com: Florida elects Rick Scott who admitted to 14 counts of Medicare fraud – Tampa Bay Hernando County Political Buzz | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/hernando-county-political-buzz-in-tampa-bay/florida-elects-rick-scott-who-admitted-to-14-counts-of-medicare-fraud#ixzz1Alv6kKUa

    • indypendent

      there is also an accusation from Rick Scott’s campaign workers that he paid them in gift cards and not money.

      What a guy…..

  42. indypendent

    Here is an unvarnished take on Reagan:

    • itolduso

      Looks like a “fair and balanced” report to me. Perhaps not even digging into his fallacies enough.

      Oh, and my blood pressure is still just fine.

      Another assumption bites the dust.

  43. itolduso

    “go ahead and think whatever makes you feel superior…..

    if that’s what it takes…..whatever….”

    Doesn;t make me superior at all.

    Just answer my question.

    Please list those I deem to be saintly and give examples if you can where I have done so.

  44. itolduso

    Well, I have waited long enough. Really, I am out of here. Whatever your political persuaion, have a great night!!

  45. Huh? After reading this I’m confused and think maybe this way of figuring the unemployment rate sounds less accurate than what they say is a myth. Maybe I’ll read it again in the morning when I’m not tired and somehow I’ll understand…

    The Most Persistent Myth About The Unemployment Rate

    • wicked

      Yes, fnord, I heard that nearly 10 years ago, after 9/11 when unemployment went nuts. It sounded bogus to me, but I was assured it was true. It does sound fishy, but I wonder if there’s any way to get an accurate count.

    • itolduso

      WEll, isn’t that special…er, I mean stupid. Okay, maybe not stupid, but pointless. Why not just, likely, actually COUNT the people receiving unemployment benefits. I have no idea how to count the ones that just quit getting benefits. It’s a little difficult. Kinda like counting the number of illegals, or people with one blue eye and one green, or, the one I always like…”There are 100,000 unreported ________ (mostly crimes) in the US every year. Yeah, sure.
      Surveys are okay, but no substitute for actual informaiton

    • wicked

      itolduso, I can’t see how counting only those who are receiving unemployment benefits makes for a good count of the unemployed in this country, especially when so many have now fallen off the rolls, due to their benefits expiring.

      Neither do I think the current method of calling and asking questions is any better. Too many people don’t answer calls from numbers they don’t recognize, and some may not want to answer if caller ID says it’s a government call. Not to mention that not everyone may have a phone, especially in times like these. Besides, some areas of the country have higher unemployment numbers than others, so should we think an average is being used? And just how accurate is that? Not very.

      There may not be a method that does work well or is accurate.

  46. Look! All you have to do to get the full list and be properly warned is order the magazine!


    Host of Comedy Central’s “The Daily Show”

    Political satirist Jon Stewart’s tongue is acid-tipped. His popular “Daily Show” program regularly slays elected officials for hypocrisy and self-importance, derides political buffoonery and skewers media excesses. More often than not, it’s bitingly hilarious and decidedly Left-leaning: a potent combination.

    A 2007 media survey revealed that more than one-in-10 young voters relied on Stewart’s show as a primary source of political news — a share that has undoubtedly swelled since. It’s no small coincidence that voters aged 18-29 backed Barack Obama for president by a breathtaking 2-to-1 margin.

    While acting as a formidable political opinion maker, Stewart inoculates himself against serious criticism by playing the “I’m just a comedian” card. This artifice has become known among conservatives as the Jon Stewart “clown nose on, clown nose off ” routine.

    Laugh all you want. It works.

    Order Townhall Magazine today to get the full list.


  47. wicked

    My heart is with tstb and his family, along with my prayers and wishes for a quick and complete recovery. Sorry I missed posting yesterday. I was caught off guard and didn’t have the words I needed to say. Then today was no school and 4 g-kids all day. But tstb hasn’t left my mind all day.