Monday, 8/30/10, Public Square


Filed under The Public Square

49 responses to “Monday, 8/30/10, Public Square

  1. tosmarttobegop

    I coined a phrase while writing a story by the same name, “Grow angry at the wind”.
    The story was about when something happens that you can not control or change.
    And how being angry at it would do no good or make sense.

    But the anger is real and often can not be escaped so it without intention spreads to other things that you can effect or change.

    I heard of a recent survey where the question was who did a better job of giving aid to Louisiana in a disaster President Bush or President Obama?

    The majority of those surveyed said that Bush did a better job.

    I guess it would depend on what the aid that was seen as being needed.

    In one, people died needlessly and were in harms way needing rescued.

    In the other, oil was slowly drifting toward the shore and effecting the local economy.

    If the aid that was seen as needed was the needless death and people remaining in harms way.

    Then Bush did do the better job.

    • We’ll swing back and if the Republicans do a better job — good for all of us, good for our country too.

    • I’m not yet ready to give up on Americans. I don’t think they are stupid, and it would take a majority of stupid people to think Republicans will do any better.

      I ask, again, what legislative accomplishments can be attributed to the Republican Party for the last ten years or so? Anything?

  2. Thomas Frank says this is his last article for The Wall Street Journal. It is, like his books and earlier articles, worth reading. He is a Kansan to be proud of. He had so much figured out before others even started figuring…

    “The Economic Crisis: Lessons Unlearned
    That Republicans have succeeded in blaming government is testimony to their political brilliance.

    This is my last weekly column for the Wall Street Journal, and writing it has naturally put me in mind of my first efforts in this space, back in the summer of 2008.

    Those were the days when economic disaster was beginning to unfold; it hit a crescendo in September of that year when Wall Street teetered and the government came to the rescue with a TARP.

    By November, the nation’s mood had soured enough that a senator from Illinois won the presidency even though he appeared to defy political convention in countless ways. And all the while, the front pages overflowed with shocking tales of the corruption of the old order, the gross venality of the subprime lenders, the sabotage of the regulators, and the manufacture of poisonous triple-A securities.

    It was an awful time, but for someone in my situation there was also—please pardon the expression—hope to go along with the disaster. We were descending further into the worst recession I had ever seen, but at least we were finally going to be done with the farcical intellectual and political consensus of the preceding decades.”

    continue reading —

  3. tosmarttobegop

    Fnord that was brought the phrase and the story back to the forefront of my mind.

    The real anger is with the economy, but as much as that anger is real it does not good to be mad at the economy.

    So that anger moves to the Government, blaming it for the lack of the regulations that would have slowed it or stopped it. Or to blame it for not doing more of the right things.

    Anger is an emotion that often leads to losing reason and reality. You can end up believing things that otherwise you would think does not make sense.

    • We certainly see a lot of that today. Anyone who can believe things like President Obama is a Muslim, and wasn’t born in America, that Glenn Beck believes in civil rights, that taxes are too high only just now when they are at the lowest levels in over 50 years, that the party of hell no doesn’t even need to have a single idea or solution in order to be elected is not rational.

  4. This growing movement toward a theocracy is what will be America’s undoing.

    • itolduso

      A piece of advice, you can take it or leave it, makes no difference to me.

      Quit succumbing to the politics of fear. There is no Growing movement towards a theocracy. There is a louder one, due to the ability of any group, with the internet and 24 hour news cycles having to fill the time with something, but there is no Growing movement. There possibly is a growing movement to give recognition to the role religion played in the foundations of this country, which causes certain liberals to have a hissy fit, but the movement towards established a theocracy isn;t any bigger in relative terms than it ever has been.

    • I acknowledge the way you think.

      I am not, no matter what you think, against God or anyone’s religion or beliefs, but do strongly think the only way our country will survive is if the separation of church and state is protected.

    • I will never live my life afraid. I learned that from the last administration. I will respect every person, in fact I will celebrate the diversity of people. I will respect every religion and each person’s right to choose.

  5. Those who are possessed of ideas such as

    –the earth is less than 10,000 years old

    –destroying a blastocyst in the incinerator thus saving it from research is moral

    –making abortions illegal will stop them

    –that evolution isn’t a valid theory

    –that some humans are more ___ than other humans (fill in the blank with some word indicating better or more worthy)

    –that some religions are more ___ than other religions (see above)

    –that a business will protect our environment even if it cuts into their profit margins

    –that war and military might is always the way to prove superiority in dealings with other countries

    want to control our country, her government and her people.

    • Just maybe they’ve already accomplished their goal, and it’s too late to think another path is possible.

    • itolduso

      Those who are possessed of ideas such as

      –the earth is less than 10,000 years old

      Very few in percentages of any christians hold this believe. They may be noisy, but few i number

      –destroying a blastocyst in the incinerator thus saving it from research is moral

      The concern is going from those saved for whatever reason and then discarded (such as fertility things) to actually creating embryos for destruction. In my opinion, though I am not concerned with the former, I would very much be against the latter.

      –making abortions illegal will stop them

      (So- should we make anything else illegal because it doesn’t stop them?)

      –that evolution isn’t a valid theory

      Most I personally know don;t entirely disagree with teaching evolution. However, they also believe it’s warts and fault should be taught as well. Some believe creationism should be taught as well. I do not. However, I once went toe to toe with a HS biology teacher, who taught evolution. No prolem with that. He went on to teach that belief in Creationism was a sign of ignorance. Bad thing for him. I told him, and the principal agreed, either leave creationism and those who believe it, out of the talk completely, or allow it to be taught by someone who knew something about it. He backed down.

      –that some humans are more ___ than other humans (fill in the blank with some word indicating better or more worthy)

      –that a business will protect our environment even if it cuts into their profit margins

      Some will. Most won’t.

      –that war and military might is always the way to prove superiority in dealings with other countries

      I don;t know of anyone who actually believes that. However, to speak softly and carry a big stick, You have to have it known that you have the will to use the stick if necessary.

      want to control our country, her government and her people.

      True of every political group, including liberals.

  6. “The concern is going from those saved for whatever reason and then discarded (such as fertility things) to actually creating embryos for destruction. In my opinion, though I am not concerned with the former, I would very much be against the latter.”

    And who are you accusing of succumbing to the politics of fear?

    • itolduso

      No fear. Just understanding that when dollars are in play, as you often rail yourself, ethics go out the window.

    • You fear whatever it is you fear and call it something else when it’s what you feel. When I see evidence you don’t then you call me afraid. See? I think you are seeing things that aren’t, you think I am seeing things that aren’t. Why do you think you are so superior that you know what is and what isn’t in the future?

      • itolduso

        Sorry to have offered an opinion different than yours. I won’t bother again.

      • If you can’t defend the fact that you and I have an equal right to our opinions, that your arguments are exactly the same as mine, that neither of us may be right, neither of us may be wrong, but we still hold differing opinions, there is no reason to continue communicating.

        If you want to keep your opinions to yourself that is your right. I will continue to express mine, I will also continue to accept that mine aren’t the only opinions and accept each person’s right to express their own.

      • We don’t know at this point whether either of us are predicting the future accurately. What I do know is that both of us see something in the future that the other doesn’t.

        I don’t know why you decided the best thing to do was to not talk to someone who thinks differently than you do.

      • itolduso

        In point of fact, the Bush “law” or regulation only stated that no Federal funds could be expended on embryonic stem cell research outside of using the stem cell lines already in use. It didn;t ban stem cell research, and it didn;t ban research using other stem cell lines.
        It basically banned anyone from creating, as in on purpose, new embryos, for the purpose of destroying them, for the purpose of stem cell research.

        The side effect was those in “storage”

        In actuality, embryonic stem cell research is not illegal, nor is it illegal to use frozen embryos for stem cell research. The ban is on using federal moneys for the same

  7. “–making abortions illegal will stop them

    (So- should we make anything else illegal because it doesn’t stop them?)”

    Strawman argument. I didn’t say one single word about making things illegal, only commented on those who ?think? making abortions illegal will stop them thus saving lives. It doesn’t, and they fool only themselves. Their efforts are misdirected at best.

  8. itolduso

    Strawman argument

    As is yours. Whether or not people engage in an activity is not the reason to make it legal or illegal.

    • I obviously am inadequate in being able to communicate with you. I never said anything about making anything illegal stopping that which is made illegal. In fact, I said making it illegal won’t stop it.

      Here’s the exact words I said:

      “Those who are possessed of ideas such as making abortions illegal will stop them want to control our country, her government and her people.”

      I know that whether abortions are legal or illegal they will happen. Some people seem not to understand that and say they want Roe v Wade overturned so the lives being destroyed will be saved.

  9. Creationism isn’t science. There is definitely a place for the story of creation to be taught, and it isn’t in the science classroom.

    The theory of evolution is a theory because in the maths and sciences, a theory is a tested and testable concept which is used to explain an occurrence. In the sciences, theories are created after observation and testing.

  10. “–that war and military might is always the way to prove superiority in dealings with other countries

    I don;t know of anyone who actually believes that. However, to speak softly and carry a big stick, You have to have it known that you have the will to use the stick if necessary.”

    The neocons do! They absolutely said in their own words that they want to control the world militarily.

    • itolduso

      Please provide a link

    • itolduso

      Thank you for the link. After reading the same, I don’t come to the same conclusions you do, nor do I agree with some of their tenants, in particular the “constibulary” role of the US Military…anong others. Anyway, thanks for the link. It does make interesting reading.

    • tosmarttobegop

      LOL believe me when I say it is hard not to jump in on this one.

      But Fnord is correct about the Neo-Conservatives. They expressed such thoughts as:

      We declared war on Japan and Germany and now they are strong friends and Democracies. So declaring war on countries we do not agree with in order to make countries more friendly to the United States is in the country’s best interests.

      Did the “Bush doctrine” kind of sound familiar?
      It came from the Project for a New American century.
      And since it author was Paul Wolfowitz.

      And he had already propose it before while in the President Ford administration.
      But then he was basically laughed at and thought a loon.

      Now what was his inspiration? Using the military to spread Democracy!
      Well again the thoughts and doctrine might sound familiar because it is exactly what Leo Trotsky the founder of the Soviet Red Army. Purpose with his concept of
      “Perpetual Revolution” invade a country, defeat their armies and install a Communist Government. It will be in their best interests since they are not aware of how much better they will be under a Communist Government.

      I will look for the links but since my browser failed I was not able to reload them on this one. It took me over a year to finally accept that this was the reality of what was going on.
      These delusional Ideologs actually believed we could roll in and defeat the entire Middle East in a “Cake walk”. Bring a Democratic Government and a better environment for Israel.

      The sources were not from Liberal sources it was in their own words.
      Call it hubris if you will, they did not hide their thoughts or plans.
      In part because they actually did not think you or I were smart enough to notice or understand.

      • Years ago you shared those links with me. It took over a year and I would read a few and then ask for more — you never gave me more than I was ready for. And you told me some weren’t what I wanted to read. I read for longer than a year and there was no way to deny what neocons are.

        Early on when I found they weren’t hiding any of this, it was all right there in plain sight if you knew who and what to look for I remember being chilled to the bone. This was early in the bush the lesser presidency and he hadn’t even begun his war of choice with Iraq at that point. Scariest thing I’ve ever studied! I didn’t relax for a single second of his second term.

      • I have since deleted them all from bookmarks. I learned what they were and didn’t want the reminders.

  11. itolduso

    “I don’t know why you decided the best thing to do was to not talk to someone who thinks differently than you do.”

    I didn;t say that. I said I will not bother to offer a conflicting opinion. If I can offer facts, I will. If not, I won’t.

  12. indypendent

    I find it amusing that Beck is now seen as some godly leader who is bringing God back into America’s future.

    I wonder if the Evangelical Christians have done any research about Mormonism? If the have, then how can they tolerate that religion but be intolerant of Islam religion? Both religions have questionable things about them – IMHO.

    But, so does this make Beck the GOP’s Pied Piper with magic underwear?

  13. indypendent

    Alot of so-called Christian Conservatives see nothing wrong with fertility clinics throwing out unused embryos into the garbage but call it murder if someone wants the embryos for research.

    I guess throwing into the garbage is not really murder?

    I’ll remember that the next time some dead newborn baby is found in the garbage can.

  14. When federal funding is not available it increases the odds (greatly!) that cures and treatments gained through private funding will be valuable to that person who provided the funding, and too costly for most people.

    The fear that scientists are going to create embryos for destruction will keep them safe from research for a time. If reason prevails science will move forward with federal funding using those blastocysts that are destroyed in incinerators.

    “May 9, 2003
    Clinics Hold More Embryos Than Had Been Thought
    Fertility clinics in the United States have accumulated some 400,000 frozen human embryos, about twice the number estimated, since1986 when the in vitro fertilization procedure began, the first official inventory has found.”

  15. I guess as long as there are radicals like these two who are scientists, I will agree that some scientists are capable of anything and everything. I will add that scientists will be more effective at monitoring their own than government or laws will ever be, in my opinion.

    Plaintiffs in stem cell lawsuit made news for other issues,0,7279207.story

  16. indypendent

    I agree with the Pied Piper on what he says in this article but the proof is in the pudding. So I am going to wait and see what talk radio entertainers and Republicans do from now until election day.

    Actions speak louder than words. After all, the Devil himself can pray a mighty pretty prayer.

    Interesting note – Beck states that both parties have sold their souls but yet he clearly promotes Republicans – why?

    • That’s a great question? It’s a premise I hear repeated by many, but I never hear any answer. Kinda like the question I ask overandover — what legislative accomplishments have the Republicans accomplished in about the last ten years that you are proud of? [crickets]

  17. indypendent

    Before Republicans go GA-GA over the prospect of bringing god back into America’s politics – let’s review the past decade – shall we?

    George W. Bush was installed as the president in 2000 (after a much-debated and questionable Florida vote count) and thus started the 8 years that ended in our economy collapsing.

    George W. Bush was a self-professed born-again Christian who professed to put God first in his life.

    I don’t know if this country could survive another so-called godly president.

    What we need is to get some common sense and realize that life is a balance.

    Business and labor need to work together to make sure that each other can be sustained. Since the Reagan reign of terror – business has been emphasized to the detriment of labor and the middle class.

    It’s no wonder our country is in such bad shape – financially and politically.

    • That’s the point few acknowledge! It doesn’t matter how ‘godly’ our founders were or weren’t, it doesn’t matter how ‘godly’ today’s politicians are or aren’t — the two are separate! Always have been, and for our country to survive will always need to be! We cannot sanction a religion and follow our Constitution. We can only acknowledge the right to choose, and should respect ALL choices equally!

      • indypendent

        But invoking God’s name gets certain voters all in a twitter to think they are on the ‘right’ side.

        I read an article today that Ralph Reed (remember his name from the Social Conservative Christian Republicans takeover in 1994?) boasted that Christians have been working together with Jews, Catholics and Mormons towards common goals.

        And basically what those common goals have been abortion and gay marriage.

        But when I read that article – I wondered why Mr.Reed did not include Islam, Hindu, Buddhist and other religions in his list.

        If he was bragging that Christians are so tolerant and working with another – then why not work with all the religions?

  18. itolduso

    Subject: Important Safety WARNING

    According to Snopes this is true.

    Subject: Danger Alert

    Kids are putting Drano, tin foil, and a little water in soda bottles and
    capping it up – leaving it on lawns. When you go to pick up the trash,
    the bottle is shaken just a little – in about 30 seconds or less it builds
    up a gas and explodes with enough force to remove some of your
    The liquid that comes out is boiling hot as well. Don’t pick up any
    bottles that may be lying in our yards or in the gutter, etc.

    Pay attention to this.
    1. a plastic bottle with a cap.
    2. a little Drano.
    3. a little water.
    4. a small piece of foil.
    5. Disturb it by moving it; and BOOM!!

    No fingers left and other serious effects to your face, eyes, etc.

    People are finding these ?bombs? in mailboxes and in their yards, just
    waiting for you to pick it up intending to put it in the trash. But,
    you’ll never make it!!! It takes about 30 seconds to blow after
    you move the thing.

    See “SNOPES” below….it’s true.

    • WOW! Do you have any idea how many drink containers I pick up? It’s the main trash at the tiny neighborhood park I maintain — bottles made of glass and plastic, cups of paper and Styrofoam, cans… I do this without having my glasses on and often with sweat dripping into my eyes. Seems like my tiny little park may not be as well maintained if I heed this warning. I thank you! I’d prefer to keep my body parts so I will pay careful attention!

  19. tosmarttobegop

    There were some I could find again, though a few comment on them.
    For some there is no smoking gun information, it is in between the old if it walks like a duck and swims like a duck.

    Or need to be taken in comparison with the outcomes and results that had happen.
    The same people that were saying this needs to be done or that needs to be done. shortly after becoming a part of the administration those this and that becomes reality.

    Like having stated from several years pasted that the United States should go in to depose Saddam and bring Democracy to the Middle East by bring down Saddam and installing a Democratic Government in Iraq.

    Then suddenly here we go into Iraq on premise that if you had been following the news seemed questionable. At least to the point like in my case there was a little voice that just would not shut up.

    People like in the case of Wolfowitz, who had an established track record of going beyond what is known facts and provable to a conclusion that is more extreme than reason would accept.

    Reviewing and hunting up some of these links was like tearing the scab of a deep wound.
    One that had became less painful since the Neo-Conservatives have lost most of their immediate powers.

    But do not make the mistake of thinking whew that is over!

    As was seen with McCain and his seemingly over night conversion to a hard line Neo-Conservative.
    They still have the ears of some in the Government and that should be taken as a warning to all Americans.
    Before they are all purged there will always be the possibility of a war more disastrous then Iraq.

    They did not learn anything from Iraq, instead of stopping and looking at their policies they simply blamed the failure on Bush, Rumsfield and the administration for not carrying out their intents correctly.

    If I had to compare what it was like reviewing these old links it would be like opening an old photo album.
    And looking at the accident scene photos of when a loved one was killed in a car wreck.

    • itolduso

      I want you to know that I will look thru these. I may not respond for awhile, bcause I have gotten extremely busy , but I WILL read them. Thanks for the information, I will get to it as soon as I can

  20. tosmarttobegop

    Thank you ITOLYOUSO, part of the problem with this is that the majority of Republicans dismiss it as nothing more than partisan spin.