The Southern Poverty Law Center indicates that there were 149 Patriot groups in 2008 and as of 2009 their numbers were 512; an increase of 244 percent! These groups include militias as well. They all hold the view that the Federal Government is their primary enemy.
In the above referenced source, the authors conclude that our situation currently is much like the time before the Oklahoma City bombing. Bill Clinton reminds people that words do matter and those of the media have a special responsibility in not inflaming people.
iggydonnelly
PrairiePopulistsAndProgressives.net 
In reading this information, I was reminded of those people who say that hate crimes attempt to punish thought. The District Attorney from Butler County came to mind. According to that person, hate crimes are unneeded and the criminal action is hateful in and of itself. I tend to differ from this view and feel that certain ideologies that accompany some crimes make them deserving of special punishment. What do you all think?
Although I agree all criminal action is hateful but when racial, ethnic or sexual orientation is the motivating factor behind doing the crime, then that factor needs to be taken into account – in my opinion.
Let’s take the case of many KKK cross burnings that happened too many times in our country’s history.
It is a crime to set fire to property – that is called arson.
When fire is set to intentionally scare the black people living in that house and send a message to the rest of the community.
On the surface, this may look like the same crime – fire being intentionally set.
But when you factor in the hate factor as the motivation – then that should be considered a different crime.
Additional penalties for so called hate crimes are unnecessary, and wrong. Eliminate them now. It puts crime against one race/religion/sex/sexual identification/ whatever as a higher crime than another. It seems to not fit at least the spirit of equal protection under the law.
Instead, make punishment swift and sure.
If there is really equal protection under the law, then is every crime equal?
Is that what you’re trying to say?
I wonder if you would have this same viewpoint if a crime was done to you simply because of your religious faith?
Would you be so willing to just let that crime be counted as something less than a hate crime?
If so, then why do I hear so much whining and moaning from these Christians about all their persecution they are professing to be suffering?
Of course, there is no proof of their perceived persecution.
Yes, I believe that hate crimes should be deleted, including those about faith. You don’t hear me whining about prosecutions, now do you? I thought not. In fact, I personally know lots of Christians. None of them are complaining.
So-called hate crimes, eh?
If a crime is committed by someone due mainly to the fact that they hate the victim due to some back-country, ignorant, racist, homophobic bullsh#% idea that they have in their tiny, little brain, then maybe they should have to pay extra to the society around them for their ignorance. Maybe that will motivate the ignorant and scared sh#%less among us to GET EDUCATED. They might try reaching out to those around them that scare them so much and find out that Gramps was wrong–they really aren’t that different and it doesn’t rub off on you, you can’t catch it and/or God created all humans equal.
If you understood the phrase “equal protection under the law” you would understand that this is exactly in the spirit of equal protection that hate crimes should be punished harshly. Are you saying that if a white man shoots a black man, it is “unequal” to punish him more harshly because he did it because the guy was black? Because, if you are, that is, again, EXACTLY why we have to have these special laws–so that white folks understand that they don’t have carte blanche to go around torturing and/or killing people because they don’t like their skin color or their sexual orientation. (Historically, it’s been a problem.)
Punishment is plenty swift and sure–ask the many innocent men of color sitting in jail cells. When law is applied equally in this country, we won’t have to have special laws to protect the minority. And since the white folks in this country are soon to become the minority, some reflection on this issue may be in order.
And hate crimes about faith? ARE YOU SERIOUS???
When is the last time you saw someone swinging from a noose on a tree with a sign that said “Christian” around their neck? When is the last time a couple of sadistic monsters took a Christian out in a field and tortured him for hours and hung him on a fence to die because he was a Christian?
Persecution complex, anyone?
I’ve been at functions last night and today hosted by WIN — Wichita Women’s Iniative Network Inc. The guest of honor for the series of meetings is Denise Brown, sister of Nicole Brown Simpson who was murdered in 1994. Ms. Brown has a passion for working herself out of a job ever since she made addressing domestic abuse and violence against women her job.
I’ve heard some of the saddest stories, and some of the greatest success stories I’ll probably ever hear.
Crimes where a person targets someone because they are _______ (fill in that blank) are heinous. They are premeditated crimes against a person who happens to be _____.
The statistics of domestic violence are staggering! We need to become more aware, more involved and more willing to help stop this epidemic.
Today, Governor Parkinson singed a new law requiring a domestic violence designation in a criminal case if the court determines the defendant committed such an offense. Kansas joins Colorado as the only two states that have strong laws against domestic violence.
Last night I heard Curt and Christie Brungardt, parents of Jana Mackey, speak. Jana was a law student, served as a sexual assault and domestic violence advocate and lobbyist for the National Organization for Women. She was murdered by her boyfriend Adolfo Garcia-Nunez, who was arrested in New Jersey and then committed suicide in a holding cell.
Today when he signed the new law, Parkinson said it’s a noble mission. “The treatment of women on this planet is shameful.”
Yes, we need special punishment for hate crimes! And we need to be sure we are all better educated and aware of these crimes that target someone just because they are _____. It takes a special kind of hate, and deserves a special kind of punishment!
And to think, someone else on this blog just recently referenced the Southern Baptists as being the religion that stands proud to make their women submissive to their husbands.
And then we wonder why there is so much domestic violence?
Women being submissive subjects to their husbands. The Catholic Church STILL in trouble for their covering up of child molestation by their own priests.
Is it any wonder we are such a violent society?
Men are very powerful in many ways. It’s been that way a very long time.
I wonder if it is just a coincidence that Southern Baptists use the King James Version of the Bible?
No, it couldn’t be related. King James was not a male chauvinist was he?
sarcasm/off
I will have to remind my wife of that and then hide for my life!
fnord – I wanted to go see Denise Brown but could not. I can imagine she was very good in her speaking about this issue.
I think her sister’s murder was so profound and had such an impact on her that she was destined to do what she is doing now.
I can imagine her saying that she wishes she could talk herself out of her job as an advocate against domestic violence.
But as long as we have a society that feels the person with the most power and/or money can do whatever they want, to whomever they want and in whatever manner they want – there will always be domestic violence.
I do not recall there being this much inflaming during the Clinton administration.
Though it was easy enough to hear it you had to be more into the hatred then simply watching the news.
I was watching Limbaugh more during that time and he was mainly ranting about the Unwashed masses bring the country down. The funny thing to me at the time was many would listen to Rush were who he was actually talking about.
He would mention Clinton but mainly that Bill was a criminal not trying to undermine the country.
Yeah I think the main drive today is that the Cons are seeing that Obama will be hard to beat. In the foot race to the White house their best candidate has one leg and not feet.
Add to that they are carrying so much baggage of being delusional and easy to catch in out and out lies.
LOL what is Romney going to do?
“AHHH when it was me doing health care reform it was better! But now it was Obama?”.
One leg, no feet and no working brain cell. But their big mouths all work very well, don’t they?
You betcha – Wink, Wink….
It’s a long way to 2012, lots of time and possibility for who knows what calamities or new potential patriots!
Right now the Republicans have no one who could beat Obama, and I’m sure even tho they’d never admit it those capable of thinking know that is a reality.
Congress is where most people’s anger is aimed, even those who pay attention, and we know those are few compared to the ones who listen to a few sound bites here and there. President Obama maintains a high approval rating.
Even if the Republicans come up with a strong candidate, will that person be able to pass all the tests of the base in order to be nominated and also have appeal with the moderates?
I sent an e-mail to Shepard Smith today, he did it again interjecting logic, reason and rational thought to counter the mindless dribble he was confront with on Fox. How in the hell does he keep his job there?
Anyway since I was already sending an e-mail I asked him if it was true that Glen Beck gets his talking points from the space aliens that are reading his mind?
I didn’t know space aliens could read something that small and narrow.
They have highly technologically-advanced microscopes.
If you look around at the GOP races, it seems the Tea Partiers are out for blood of any moderate Republican.
Charlie Crist from Florida is in trouble. Sen. Lindsay Graham is in trouble in South Carolina.
Both are getting lambasted by Tea Partiers. Some so-called leader of one of the ‘real’ Repulbican Conservative groups challenged Graham to come clean about his homosexuality. Because, as this guy put it, he fears that Sen. Graham would be manipulated for his votes by his homosexual lifestyle.
WTF?
So, I suppose those too-many-to-count straight Republican men who have had adulterous affairs could never be manipulated for their votes or to helped by fellow C Streeters in negotiating a payoff for their mistress, her husband and their kids.
Or am I mistaken?
‘You don’t hear me whining about prosecutions, now do you? I thought not. In fact, I personally know lots of Christians. None of them are complaining.’
—
itolduso:
Actually, I don’t even know you so how would I know how you feel about religious persecution? I did not make this personally about you. I only asked a theoretical question.
I simply brought that fact up because I know alot of Religious Right-Winger Christians are the ones complaining about being persecuted.
And since you obviously think the motivation of hate is not a crime, then I simply asked if religious hate would justify the crime being a hate crime.
Also – I know alot of Christians and they are not complaining about being persecuted. But then these people are not the ones demanding that hate crimes not be considered as hate crimes. Now are they?
Hate crimes are premeditated crimes and just like muder 1 deserve harsher punishments!
Actually, in determining the punishment in these death penalty cases, isn’t the killers’s motivation a factor?
I just don’t understand how people can think that killing someone is a crime but if the victim was singled out just because they were homosexual or black that it it still just a murder. That motivation has a lot to do with the nature of the crime. In my opinion.
itolduso – you did not address my question about all crime being equal?
So, the KKK burning a cross in a white person’s yard is no different than the KKK burning a cross in a black person’s yard?
Let’s not forget something imporant here – how many times have the KKK burned a cross in the white person’s yard as compared to one burned in a black person’s yard?
Now tell me that the motivation of racial hate is not somewhere in that scenario.
Paula – I do believe that a hate crime can be about religion. There are examples of religious intolerant people who have murdered others in the name of their God or their God-given missions throughout history.
Spanish Inquisition and The Crusades to name just a couple.
Or the Religious Right-Wingers who have made this war on terror into a holy war. These are the folks that want us now to drop a bomb on Iran to kill all those Muslims.
Religious hatred is strong – sometimes even stronger than racial or homosexual hatred.
indy,
I was unclear. I definitely agree with you that much hatred, intolerance and violence has been done in the name of one religion or another. But, in this country, for the Christians to constantly be whining about opression is outrageous. Muslims in this country might want to worry. Jews everywhere should worry, but, like I said, I haven’t seen too many Christians in this country murdered, tortured or singled out for violence based upon their religious beliefs. Even the judgey, hatey ones. (shout out to Sarah Palin)
Yeah, I knew what you meant. But I did want to bring out the historical facts about religious hatred being used to murder people.
Yes, you’re right about Christians in this country whining about being so oppressed and persecuted.
But that started with all crap about taking Christ out of Christmas – remember?
Jesus, people – just take a chill pill!
But, of course, with all those Christian preachers telling their faithful followers that they are being persecuted is bound to bring in more money to the preachers/churches so that they can fight those evil Liberals out to destroy them.
I suspect this whole persecution thingy is more about bringing in more money than actual persecution.
I suspect this whole persecution thingy is more about bringing in more money than actual persecution.
I’ve begun to suspect that everything many churches do and say is designed to bring more money in. If we taxed the churches, we could have free healthcare AND free education! (And plenty of money left over!!)
People interpret the Bible differently. Look at the Phelps gang who think they’re doing good works.
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” II Timothy 3:12 KJV
Do you suppose some people must feel persecuted in order to show they’re living godly? Probably. Even if it takes fooling themselves into believing what isn’t true. Again, I think yes.
Sorry, I don’t believe that someone beating someone up because they are ______ deserves any more punishment than because they want their shoes, or their pocketbook, or they don’t like the way they talk, or any other motivation, opr because they don’t belong to the right gang, or any other reason. Same crime, regardless of motivation, deserves the same punishment. I don’t care who does it against whom. In my opinion, hate crimes legislating is just pandering to the group of the day. Something to get votes, or for politicians to prove they are DOING SOMETHING. In my mind, it’s wrong.
To answer your question
“So, the KKK burning a cross in a white person’s yard is no different than the KKK burning a cross in a black person’s yard?”
That is correct.
We can agree to disagree.
And, I will give thanks for being in America where we have the right to choose and voice our own opinions.
You probably are thankful for that too. That would then make another point we agree about.
“If we taxed the churches, we could have free healthcare AND free education! (And plenty of money left over!!)”
Feel free to do so, AND every other 501c3 organization. I have no problem with that. Remove every tax exemption, for every organization. Let’s do it!!!
From your lips to God’s ears.
But you’ll have to get that one by all those anti-Obama not-for-profit groups that like all that evil government tax-free money.
In fact, I support removing the tax exemption for charitable giving. For ALL charitable giving.
I agree, we can agree to disagree. And Thank God and our forefathers for the priviledge!!
Those forefathers you speak so highly of also believed in tolerance. That’s why they included freedom of religion in the cornerstone of our country.
But how many people do I hear every day calling our country a Christian nation?
We are not a Christian nation – we are nation that cherishes freedom of religion.
If all crimes are equal, then why did it take centuries for blacks to be considered equal in the eyes of American law?
And homosexuals are still waiting for their recognition as being equals.
itolduso can have his/her opinion as to what is equal or not equal – but historically, the power in this country has been very one-sided.
Usually an agreement to disagree is acknowledgment of two differing opinions and that neither person is going to change their opinion.
I know I’m not! And, I was convinced itolduso wasn’t going to either.
For me it’s the premeditation which has earned harsher penalties for many years. When a person aims their crime at ______ it is premeditated.
Justice under the law has never seemed to be equal to me. Perhaps it’s because people are involved and we are each unique, including in our interpretations of right / wrong, equal / unequal… Even those who desire and try their damnest to be fair are still people with inherent weaknesses.
I’ve never met a perfect person. Met some who think they are.
And sometimes it just comes down to – when money talks, B.S. walks.
Life is not fair.
Yes, justice is often available to those who can afford to buy it.
This is totally off topic – but did you see where there was a hearing today about Roeder’s complaint of his treatment in prison?
I only saw the link on the Wichita Eagle online site but never got a chance to go in and read it.
Did anyone happen to see this?
You’re kidding!
He thought it was going to be a walk in the park?
lol
Maybe now that he is realizing what he signed on for, he’ll want to talk about those who financed his crime. If he’s belly aching someone better send him some money so he can buy some comforts…
I’ll try to find that link again and go in and read what his complaints are.
No doubt, there was no red carpet when they walked him in and no reporters there to listen to his many words of wisdom.
I copied this from the WE online site. I thought the hearing was being held today but I was mistaken. Of course, I did not go into the article and read it – that will teach me to take the time and go in the next time and see for myself, huh?
I’ve got a question though – the intitial paperwork for this hearing was done by Roeder himself in February? He was already complaining about his prison treatment before he got to prison?
Did you notice he got himself another court-appointed attorney? Isn’t that just peachy-keen to think our tax dollars are being spent so wisely?
—–
Hearing set on Roeder’s complaint about prison treatment
The Associated Press
WICHITA, Kan. – The convicted killer of a Kansas abortion provider has filed a petition complaining of his treatment in prison and seeking his release.
A hearing on Scott Roeder’s habeus corpus petition is scheduled for June 4 before Judge Timothy Henderson in Wichita. A habeus corpus petition requires that a judge determine whether the government can continue to hold a prisoner.
The court docket shows Roeder filed the initial paperwork himself in February. His court-appointed attorney, Michael Brown, could not immediately be reached for comment.
All the documents in a separate civil case involving Roeder have been sealed.
The murder case against him for killing Dr. George Tiller is now under appeal
I want to make it clear I don’t defend Dennis Rader! Buuuuttt, at the end of his horrible life of crime he admitted his crimes and disappeared. He saved the state lots of money. He saved his family, our community, his victim’s families… Criminals that behave differently could learn from him on how to conduct yourself at the end.