Well this morning once again I saw an incident of who ya going to believe.
Hatch was on one of the Sunday shows and preaching the same old line about how reconciliation has never been used for such sweeping social legislation!
The counter claim which no one on the show brought up was that it was used for the Bush tax cuts, the part D Medicare and several others. So how is it that he and others can get away with this?
Something that is either proven or not it is not like this could not be established or not as fact or spin on either side.
But is left up to the listener to accept which ever way they want.
Once again the truth is left up to personal opinion rather then proven fact.
“Kill Granny” grew legs and was accepted even through the actual amendment plainly stated what it was about.
This entire silly debate about the reconciliation process is just another talking point of Fox News so their loyal dittoheads and Palinettes can wake up each morning ready to foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Obama’s name.
I was listening to an AM radio station the other day because it was playing all those 40’s big band songs.
After the program, some preacher came on and started yelling about Obama being the anti-Christ.
One ‘qualification’ that Obama seemed to meet (in this nutjob’s interpretation) is the ability of Obama to speak with one voice to other countries.
This genius preacher-boy then informed his audience that it was possible now because of modern technology.
WTF – We’ve had satellites covering global events for a long time and it has nothing to do with Obama being the anti-Christ.
My first thought was – I wonder how many of this nutjob’s audience are loyal Fox News watchers.
All this blatant stupidity, hypocrisy and obstructionism may work to motivate the base, but doesn’t do anything to attract independents. Have they forgotten they aren’t relevant at the national level without attracting voters outside their base?
They don’t have to attract independents if this administration drives them away. No public option and no ban on pre-existing conditions isn’t playing well with independents.
Do you think those Independents are flocking to the Republicans?
If Republicans were smart – and that is a very big IF – they would stop all this Religious Right, morally superior crap and start broadening that GOP tent.
But I don’t see that happening because then the Religious Right will take their Bible and go thump elsewhere.
Bottom line – open up that tent get more numbers and then risk losing the already established numbers you’ve got – sounds like a wash to me.
I still think this is the ‘perfect storm’ for some moderate Independents to back away from both parties and start their own grassroots movement.
It can be argued that a reconciliation vote has not been used for something as large in scale as the health care reforms. I’d be hard-pressed to compare COBRA to it. Even the CHIPS program for kid’s health is not this sweeping in scope.
As things stand, any two-bit hack from Podunk can stop minor appointments or major legislation with the threat of filibuster.
But the real point is that, the way the rules are set up, Reconciliation (or capitulation) is the only way to counter the promiscuous use of filibusters by the Republicans.
With the Republican mindset being like a Gandhian lie down in the middle of the road passive resistance, I see no other way to have majority rule.
I’m not well informed enough to even ask this question so I hope I can make myself understood — I know how far apart Haiti, Chile and Turkey are, but is it possible that someplace under the earth’s core (where those plates that shift and cause earthquakes are located) we’re experiencing a domino effect? Is there any relationship at all between the three recent earthquakes?
Fnord, that’s occured to me, too. All of the quakes are on the “Ring of Fire” or the Pacific Plate. All are subductor zones. Earthquakes in these areas are nothing new, but the timing makes one wonder. There was an earthquake in Tiawan a couple days ago and one in Japan a couple of weeks ago.
The timing is a little scary, no?
I saw “2012” this weekend. Maybe I’m just paranoid.
The last I knew the big volcano in Alaska was pretty unstable.
Now two people have mentioned ‘2012,’ and I don’t even know anything about it. Where did you two watch this show? It sounds like something I would like to see.
fnord, it’s another “disaster” movie, like The Day After Tomorrow. By the same director(?), I think. It came out on DVD last week, so you could probably rent it at Redbox for a buck. My d chose it over Where the Wild Things Are. You know I’m a DVD fanatic. LOL
Don’t worry Wicked, I’ll take care of you. All though I suspect you are probably better at it than you admit.
See? That is the beauty of socialism. And three musketeerism. All for one and one for all, ya know? All of us liberal refugees can pool our resources and be just fine.
All those “go it alone” cowboys will be circling our campfire, smelling the stew, hearing the music, and watching us sleep the sleep that only those with peace in their hearts enjoy.
Hell, I’ll even take a turn with the gun standing guard. I may rethink my position of never shooting a human.
‘Cause ya know, “some humans just aint human”.
Can you see those weblog asswipes trying to cooperate on ANYTHING?
PrairiePond, it’s always good to see you. Also good to know that you’ve survived the crappy winter. 🙂
Maybe I’m just feeling too old to rough it these days, but I’m sure if you were there to lead the wagons, we’d make it. Would it be worth it to make it?
I read an article somewhere yesterday on the shifting of the plates–not the dinner plates–which is causing the earthquakes. The shifting isn’t unusual, but it seems there’s been more of it. We worry about the warming of earth because of our failure to help our planet. I’m not sure how the movie dealt with GW in that respect, but the ‘disaster’ was definitely caused by the warming of the earth’s core.
Granted, 2012 is fiction, but science fiction has its basis in reality. Just read Jules Verne.
Oh, and I also read that the oxygen level of the oceans is dropping to dangerous levels in many areas. Maybe it’s not good to know so much?
listening solely to the likes of talk radio and Fox.
I would be believing that Barack Obama is a foreign born, Moslem who spent twenty years setting in a Assembly of God ( which is a Christian sect) church listening to a Racist Preacher who hated Whites and
Obama is so Socialist yet there is no explanation why he seems reluctant to do anything that will truly correct the wrongs committed by the big Health insurance companies.
People who enjoy discussing politics aren’t the ones who are ill informed. We’re not in the majority either. The majority of American voters are ill informed (by choice) and don’t like even hearing about politics. Those are the people who decide elections too.
I think that is the way politicians want the majority to be – too busy to be bothered to find out the truth.
But that does not stop us all from getting those 30-second soundbites (Hell, now it is not even 30-seconds – it is some catch phrase) and then fighting the same points over and over and over until the cows come home.
During all this fighting, the politicians can quietly keep getting their money from their corporate masters and tear down our country piece by piece.
And the people still keeping fighting about the same old points – none of which will ever be resolved.
I just read on Huffington Post where Sarah Palin compared herself to God because he wrote on his palm too.
I’m not kidding folks.
Seems our darling Sarah was at a Ohio Right to Life fundraiser when she dropped this little bomb on the crowd. Read Isiah 49:16 and she says this tells her that she is in ‘good company’ due to her writing on her palm.
I don’t know about you all, but I don’t want to be the guy standing next to this woman when that karma reaches her.
In listening to Karl Rove’s interview with Matt Lauer on the Today Show, I did not know that Karl’s mother committed suicide and his adopted father was rumored to be gay.
Rove also stated that families should not be used as targets by political enemies. Wasn’t Rove’s mentor in politics Lee Atwater? And wasn’t Rove working for George W. Bush when that ugly story about McCain having that black child came out in the news?
I agree with Rove that families should not be used as targets – but it does make one wonder if he practices what he preaches?
Rove also said that he learned from his Aunt at the supper table that he was adopted. He was 19yrs old at the time. He confronted his adopted father a year later.
His adopted father and mother separated – so that just adds to the rumor about the guy being gay.
Seems to me that if Rove did indeed come from a broken home, his mother was obviously depressed to the point of suicide and his adopted father’s question of being gay that Rove would have more compassion and empathy for other people.
But, rather than havimg compassion and empathy, Rove chose to be a dog-eat-dog type of Political hired gun to shoot people down?
I’ll file this one under the laugh so you don’t cry category. This author says, “A year ago, the Democratic Party was a brand on the rise. It was the cool Mac guy to the GOP’s bland and bumbling PC. It had edge like Nike, youth like Pepsi, with the freshest campaign logo, a rocking Twitter account, celeb cred and a string of viral video sensations that would make any social media-savvy chief marketing officer envious.
Today, the brand that most closely resembles the Democrats is Toyota. With Tiger Woods as its spokesperson.
Perhaps it’s all in the tag line. Perhaps it’s as simple as finding a worthy successor to the suddenly inflammatory Change we can believe in slogan.”
The Democratic Party. Has anyone seen our momentum? It was here a moment ago.
The Democratic Party. Yes we could have.
The Democratic Party. Not the one that Sarah Palin is in.
The Democratic Party. The audacity to start over.
Creating jobs one vacated governor’s seat at a time.
The Democratic Party: Now We Got ‘Em Where They Want Us!
I think politics comes down to one thing – ‘what have you done for me lately?’
People voted for Obama because they wanted change. That desired change did not, and has not, come yet and all Democrats will suffer for it.
But I don’t think the majority of people are turning into Republicans. Because if you look at the poll numbers – the Republican Congress’ approval rating is lower than the Democrats and Obama’s.
I think alot of people are so fed up with both parties that they are willing to sit out the next election – and then the country will be left to rot in the dust.
I know I’m not turning into a Republican (even tho that is how I’m registered), I turned away from that party several years after they left me, and they’ve gotten worse since then so I won’t be going back!
It’s dangerous to sit out any election. Usually the worst candidate is elected by the fewest number of people and everyone gets disappointed.
What I would like to see happen is that NO politician of any party keeps his / her job unless they actually do their job. Part of the job we expect from them is compromise and cooperation! This filibuster everything is the worst strategy. I would like to see some politicians impeached and many others UNelected!
Elections have consequences. When the majority of voters elect a candidate s/he is expected to enact the policies they ran on, nominate judges, govern according to the political philosophy of their party. That’s how it used to be back before such extreme partisanship. Now, it’s impossible for anything to get accomplished, Americans suffer, and then we go reelect the same idiots who caused our suffering.
One of the sadder parts of elections to me is that the majority of voters is never the majority of the people. A small percentage of Americans actually vote, a larger percentage complain.
In some countries, voting is mandatory. It absolutely kills me (and, literally, Iraqis), that they will risk their lives to vote for One for Column A, or Two from Column B.
Simply because they can, and want to vindicate that right.
Out of all the misery, suffering, corruption, refugees, injuries, deaths, etc., at least we got that.
Years ago, as a young man, I knew slightly old young man who told me he never voted?
“The House could consider adopting the bill the Senate passed as a way through the legislative log-jam that has blocked reform. While this is not our preferred option, it is increasingly clear that it is likely the only option.”
I live in a majority-Republican district represented by a reasonably decent Democrat, considering, FISA betrayal notwithstanding. This convinced me to give the current crappy bill my “half-hearted” support–simply because the Republican propagandists will block any change at all–and win–if some toehold is not grabbed.
What a wasted opportunity. Crap.
But if this is a repeat of Bill Clinton’s promise to “fix” welfare reform, well, then, dammit. It’s not enough, not even close, and much of it is repulsive. But I’d rather see 30 million Americans get healthcare who don’t have it than not.
But if nothing passes. the next thing that will happen is a year-long political circus, leading to–probably not a crushing defeat like 1994–but a nowhere leading to a nothing. Of course, the opposite point is that this bill will end up costing more for too little, but the CBO projections are more encouraging than I expected.
And, perhaps, our insurance industry will have just a little less finacial incentive to slowly kill people.
PrairiePopulistsAndProgressives.net 
Well this morning once again I saw an incident of who ya going to believe.
Hatch was on one of the Sunday shows and preaching the same old line about how reconciliation has never been used for such sweeping social legislation!
The counter claim which no one on the show brought up was that it was used for the Bush tax cuts, the part D Medicare and several others. So how is it that he and others can get away with this?
Something that is either proven or not it is not like this could not be established or not as fact or spin on either side.
But is left up to the listener to accept which ever way they want.
Once again the truth is left up to personal opinion rather then proven fact.
“Kill Granny” grew legs and was accepted even through the actual amendment plainly stated what it was about.
Here’s the facts about the history of reconciliation votes —
http://www.sunlightfoundation.com/infographics/reconciliation/
People who ignore facts will remain ill informed and willfully ignorant. There isn’t anything you can do for a person who chooses to be dumb.
More information on when and how reconciliation has been used —
http://blog.sunlightfoundation.com/2010/03/03/a-brief-history-of-senate-reconciliation-votes/
The media only began mentioning this Senate rule recently, it’s been ignored in the past.
This entire silly debate about the reconciliation process is just another talking point of Fox News so their loyal dittoheads and Palinettes can wake up each morning ready to foam at the mouth at the mere mention of Obama’s name.
I was listening to an AM radio station the other day because it was playing all those 40’s big band songs.
After the program, some preacher came on and started yelling about Obama being the anti-Christ.
One ‘qualification’ that Obama seemed to meet (in this nutjob’s interpretation) is the ability of Obama to speak with one voice to other countries.
This genius preacher-boy then informed his audience that it was possible now because of modern technology.
WTF – We’ve had satellites covering global events for a long time and it has nothing to do with Obama being the anti-Christ.
My first thought was – I wonder how many of this nutjob’s audience are loyal Fox News watchers.
Ignorance is dangerous.
All this blatant stupidity, hypocrisy and obstructionism may work to motivate the base, but doesn’t do anything to attract independents. Have they forgotten they aren’t relevant at the national level without attracting voters outside their base?
They don’t have to attract independents if this administration drives them away. No public option and no ban on pre-existing conditions isn’t playing well with independents.
Do you think those Independents are flocking to the Republicans?
If Republicans were smart – and that is a very big IF – they would stop all this Religious Right, morally superior crap and start broadening that GOP tent.
But I don’t see that happening because then the Religious Right will take their Bible and go thump elsewhere.
Bottom line – open up that tent get more numbers and then risk losing the already established numbers you’ve got – sounds like a wash to me.
I still think this is the ‘perfect storm’ for some moderate Independents to back away from both parties and start their own grassroots movement.
It can be argued that a reconciliation vote has not been used for something as large in scale as the health care reforms. I’d be hard-pressed to compare COBRA to it. Even the CHIPS program for kid’s health is not this sweeping in scope.
As things stand, any two-bit hack from Podunk can stop minor appointments or major legislation with the threat of filibuster.
But the real point is that, the way the rules are set up, Reconciliation (or capitulation) is the only way to counter the promiscuous use of filibusters by the Republicans.
With the Republican mindset being like a Gandhian lie down in the middle of the road passive resistance, I see no other way to have majority rule.
This extreme has never been seen before — well said, David.
They’ve been asked to participate more times than they deserve, and still all they have is “NO!”
I’m not well informed enough to even ask this question so I hope I can make myself understood — I know how far apart Haiti, Chile and Turkey are, but is it possible that someplace under the earth’s core (where those plates that shift and cause earthquakes are located) we’re experiencing a domino effect? Is there any relationship at all between the three recent earthquakes?
Fnord, that’s occured to me, too. All of the quakes are on the “Ring of Fire” or the Pacific Plate. All are subductor zones. Earthquakes in these areas are nothing new, but the timing makes one wonder. There was an earthquake in Tiawan a couple days ago and one in Japan a couple of weeks ago.
The timing is a little scary, no?
I saw “2012” this weekend. Maybe I’m just paranoid.
I think it is just the planet’s reaction to all this negativity in the world.
Maybe the planet is reminding us of our insignificance in the big picture?
I watched 2012 Friday night. My youngest (20) kept saying, “You know, Mom, a lot of that is happening now.”
I still say we’re in for a volcano eruption, thanks to all this shifting. Just hope it isn’t in Yellowstone. 🙂 If it is, I’ll be packing my bags.
OTOH, I’m not sure I’d want to be involved in the start a new civilization on the coast of Africa. I never was the pioneering type.
The last I knew the big volcano in Alaska was pretty unstable.
Now two people have mentioned ‘2012,’ and I don’t even know anything about it. Where did you two watch this show? It sounds like something I would like to see.
fnord, it’s another “disaster” movie, like The Day After Tomorrow. By the same director(?), I think. It came out on DVD last week, so you could probably rent it at Redbox for a buck. My d chose it over Where the Wild Things Are. You know I’m a DVD fanatic. LOL
Thanks, wicked!
Hee hee heeeeeeee, Wicked!
“I never was the pioneering type.”
Don’t worry Wicked, I’ll take care of you. All though I suspect you are probably better at it than you admit.
See? That is the beauty of socialism. And three musketeerism. All for one and one for all, ya know? All of us liberal refugees can pool our resources and be just fine.
All those “go it alone” cowboys will be circling our campfire, smelling the stew, hearing the music, and watching us sleep the sleep that only those with peace in their hearts enjoy.
Hell, I’ll even take a turn with the gun standing guard. I may rethink my position of never shooting a human.
‘Cause ya know, “some humans just aint human”.
Can you see those weblog asswipes trying to cooperate on ANYTHING?
heh. Heheh. HEHEHEHEH. HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Oof. I needed a good laugh today…
PrairiePond, it’s always good to see you. Also good to know that you’ve survived the crappy winter. 🙂
Maybe I’m just feeling too old to rough it these days, but I’m sure if you were there to lead the wagons, we’d make it. Would it be worth it to make it?
I read an article somewhere yesterday on the shifting of the plates–not the dinner plates–which is causing the earthquakes. The shifting isn’t unusual, but it seems there’s been more of it. We worry about the warming of earth because of our failure to help our planet. I’m not sure how the movie dealt with GW in that respect, but the ‘disaster’ was definitely caused by the warming of the earth’s core.
Granted, 2012 is fiction, but science fiction has its basis in reality. Just read Jules Verne.
Oh, and I also read that the oxygen level of the oceans is dropping to dangerous levels in many areas. Maybe it’s not good to know so much?
On being called out for watching the MSM.
Here was my answer:
listening solely to the likes of talk radio and Fox.
I would be believing that Barack Obama is a foreign born, Moslem who spent twenty years setting in a Assembly of God ( which is a Christian sect) church listening to a Racist Preacher who hated Whites and
Obama is so Socialist yet there is no explanation why he seems reluctant to do anything that will truly correct the wrongs committed by the big Health insurance companies.
So you are the one ill informed? Uh huh.
People who enjoy discussing politics aren’t the ones who are ill informed. We’re not in the majority either. The majority of American voters are ill informed (by choice) and don’t like even hearing about politics. Those are the people who decide elections too.
I think that is the way politicians want the majority to be – too busy to be bothered to find out the truth.
But that does not stop us all from getting those 30-second soundbites (Hell, now it is not even 30-seconds – it is some catch phrase) and then fighting the same points over and over and over until the cows come home.
During all this fighting, the politicians can quietly keep getting their money from their corporate masters and tear down our country piece by piece.
And the people still keeping fighting about the same old points – none of which will ever be resolved.
LOL it was OKO! The old me-me about I get my information from the wrong sources.
I just read on Huffington Post where Sarah Palin compared herself to God because he wrote on his palm too.
I’m not kidding folks.
Seems our darling Sarah was at a Ohio Right to Life fundraiser when she dropped this little bomb on the crowd. Read Isiah 49:16 and she says this tells her that she is in ‘good company’ due to her writing on her palm.
I don’t know about you all, but I don’t want to be the guy standing next to this woman when that karma reaches her.
I heard that too, next it will be God created his own reality.
So if it is good enough for God…!
We didn’t start the fire.
In listening to Karl Rove’s interview with Matt Lauer on the Today Show, I did not know that Karl’s mother committed suicide and his adopted father was rumored to be gay.
Rove also stated that families should not be used as targets by political enemies. Wasn’t Rove’s mentor in politics Lee Atwater? And wasn’t Rove working for George W. Bush when that ugly story about McCain having that black child came out in the news?
I agree with Rove that families should not be used as targets – but it does make one wonder if he practices what he preaches?
Yeah it is funny it seem no one else had heard about Rove mother and father?
But then Rove is the master of the Political ploy. He could have just made that up to side-track from other things.
Rove also said that he learned from his Aunt at the supper table that he was adopted. He was 19yrs old at the time. He confronted his adopted father a year later.
His adopted father and mother separated – so that just adds to the rumor about the guy being gay.
Seems to me that if Rove did indeed come from a broken home, his mother was obviously depressed to the point of suicide and his adopted father’s question of being gay that Rove would have more compassion and empathy for other people.
But, rather than havimg compassion and empathy, Rove chose to be a dog-eat-dog type of Political hired gun to shoot people down?
No wonder GWB nicknamed the guy Turd Blossom.
This is an interesting op-ed piece on Rove —
Does Anybody Still Like Karl Rove?
Yep. He is a very sad case study.
I heard thunder!
I’ll file this one under the laugh so you don’t cry category. This author says, “A year ago, the Democratic Party was a brand on the rise. It was the cool Mac guy to the GOP’s bland and bumbling PC. It had edge like Nike, youth like Pepsi, with the freshest campaign logo, a rocking Twitter account, celeb cred and a string of viral video sensations that would make any social media-savvy chief marketing officer envious.
Today, the brand that most closely resembles the Democrats is Toyota. With Tiger Woods as its spokesperson.
Perhaps it’s all in the tag line. Perhaps it’s as simple as finding a worthy successor to the suddenly inflammatory Change we can believe in slogan.”
More here.
I especially like:
The Democratic Party: Now We Got ‘Em Where They Want Us!
and
Democrats. Kicking our own ass
I think politics comes down to one thing – ‘what have you done for me lately?’
People voted for Obama because they wanted change. That desired change did not, and has not, come yet and all Democrats will suffer for it.
But I don’t think the majority of people are turning into Republicans. Because if you look at the poll numbers – the Republican Congress’ approval rating is lower than the Democrats and Obama’s.
I think alot of people are so fed up with both parties that they are willing to sit out the next election – and then the country will be left to rot in the dust.
I know I’m not turning into a Republican (even tho that is how I’m registered), I turned away from that party several years after they left me, and they’ve gotten worse since then so I won’t be going back!
It’s dangerous to sit out any election. Usually the worst candidate is elected by the fewest number of people and everyone gets disappointed.
What I would like to see happen is that NO politician of any party keeps his / her job unless they actually do their job. Part of the job we expect from them is compromise and cooperation! This filibuster everything is the worst strategy. I would like to see some politicians impeached and many others UNelected!
Elections have consequences. When the majority of voters elect a candidate s/he is expected to enact the policies they ran on, nominate judges, govern according to the political philosophy of their party. That’s how it used to be back before such extreme partisanship. Now, it’s impossible for anything to get accomplished, Americans suffer, and then we go reelect the same idiots who caused our suffering.
Why should we expect different outcomes?
One of the sadder parts of elections to me is that the majority of voters is never the majority of the people. A small percentage of Americans actually vote, a larger percentage complain.
In some countries, voting is mandatory. It absolutely kills me (and, literally, Iraqis), that they will risk their lives to vote for One for Column A, or Two from Column B.
Simply because they can, and want to vindicate that right.
Out of all the misery, suffering, corruption, refugees, injuries, deaths, etc., at least we got that.
Years ago, as a young man, I knew slightly old young man who told me he never voted?
Why? Jury duty.
Sigh.
Ahh too late, since the weather had been good enough. I left the bike out and easier to get out.
But too late, the path to the garage is now a mud puddle!
Sigh . . .the AZ Star on the health-reform package.
http://www.azstarnet.com/news/opinion/editorial/article_1caadbad-1617-5724-94df-60297bdb76f1.html
“The House could consider adopting the bill the Senate passed as a way through the legislative log-jam that has blocked reform. While this is not our preferred option, it is increasingly clear that it is likely the only option.”
I live in a majority-Republican district represented by a reasonably decent Democrat, considering, FISA betrayal notwithstanding. This convinced me to give the current crappy bill my “half-hearted” support–simply because the Republican propagandists will block any change at all–and win–if some toehold is not grabbed.
What a wasted opportunity. Crap.
But if this is a repeat of Bill Clinton’s promise to “fix” welfare reform, well, then, dammit. It’s not enough, not even close, and much of it is repulsive. But I’d rather see 30 million Americans get healthcare who don’t have it than not.
But if nothing passes. the next thing that will happen is a year-long political circus, leading to–probably not a crushing defeat like 1994–but a nowhere leading to a nothing. Of course, the opposite point is that this bill will end up costing more for too little, but the CBO projections are more encouraging than I expected.
And, perhaps, our insurance industry will have just a little less finacial incentive to slowly kill people.
They enjoy tossing us crumbs. Makes them feel benevolent. It’s the ‘Let ’em eat cake!’ mentality.