Wednesday, 2/24/10, Public Square

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Filed under The Public Square

38 responses to “Wednesday, 2/24/10, Public Square

  1. http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/22/king-justifies-irs-terrorism/

    This is what I am talking about when I talk about knee-jerk reaction from the left.

    First of all, NOWHERE did King say that this attack was justified. He didn’t say it was understandable, either. He just said that he doesn’t like the IRS either. It’s a logical leap to pin him with calling the attack “justified.”

    Then, the writer implies that NONE of the grievances voiced by the attacker were legitimate and puts King in a no-win position which basically illicits the non-answer that is given in return to the bullshit loaded question.

    Have people on the left read this guys’ “Manifesto”? No, I don’t think they have. They keep calling this guy a tea-bagger and insisting that he was an ultra-conservative. But I have not seen any evidence that he was a part of the tea party movement. Just because he was against the IRS and the unfair tax system that we have in this country, does not make him a tea bagger. I have socialist leanings but am not a member of either the socialist or the communist party. The left has no right to label this guy unless they have evidence to back up their claims.

    I agree that there is hate-mongering on the radio and that some of the conservative groups are inflaming the haters in this country. I am not denying that.

    But let’s not engage in the same unfair twisting of facts that has comprised conservative propaganda — let’s work with facts and not make false assumptions.

    Some on the left have jumped on this Texas guy WITH GREAT GLEE to make their point that conservative hate speech is illiciting domestic terrorism. But without more information, we cannot come to this assumption regarding this individual. His assertions DEFINITELY came from personal experience, as anyone who had read his posting would know.

    • lilacluvr

      But what we know as fact is this man flew his plane into the IRS building with no regard for life.

      Whether this man belonged to any Tea Party or Ultra Conservative group does not really matter – does it?

      His intention was to make a statement of defiance against the government and he did just that.

      And he does have supporters in the Tea Party and Republicans that are calling this guy a hero.

      King’s logic is this guy’s action would not have been necessary if the government did not have the IRS.

      Well, as an American, I see no reason to have my tax dollars being given to Halliburton and other private contractors getting those no-bid contracts for their war profits.

      Does my thinking give me the right to fly a plane into the Pentagon? Hell NO.

      • I am not sanctioning what he did. I want to make that clear.

        We all have a tendency to see things in black and white and never really analyze them fully. We make up our minds and move on. Progressives seem to have made up their mind that this guy was a conservative, tea-bagging terrorist. And they just want to write that off to Hannity and Limbaugh’s hate speech and move on.

        I am saying it’s not that simple. I am saying that if you read this man’s story, he WAS a victim of the system, as we all have been at one point or another and his experiences formed his opinion. The tax changes that he referred to ARE discriminatory–I remember being flabbergasted when I read them. They were like a tax cut for large companies in that they could suddenly treat certain positions as salaried, even if they weren’t and cut some positions off to “contractor” status. All of a sudden, some people could be expected to work as much overtime as their company wanted and receive no overtime pay. Suddenly, certain folks were thrown into a situtation where they had to pay their own taxes and weren’t covered by other benefits, such as healthcare. It would be a very arbitrary thing to happen to you and could throw your whole world into a tailspin.

        This guy wasn’t pro-capitalist or pro-corporate like your run-of-the-mill conservative either. He had some interesting things to say about modern-day slavery. In that, he sounded much like I do when I rant on my own blog.

        I am looking to see the humanity here. To wonder what happened to this person–who was flawed as we all are–to make him think that this was the only way he could draw attention to his plight. He actually said that he thought the country was going to hell in a handbasket (my words) and that the only way he could wake up his fellow citizens was by creating a large body count.

        How far off was he when he said that? He was right, and that is something that we should examine as well. But, as long as we can just write him off as another right-wing crackpot, we don’t have to examine anything.

        And we learn nothing.

    • fnord

      Someone needs to study what and when someone angry turns violent to the point they become suicide bombers — and, it doesn’t matter what country they come from if they’re willing to take their own life and taking others with them is acceptable….

      ‘Cause we have more angry people nowadays and I wonder what it will take to push them beyond anger to violence.

      • lilacluvr

        We have a society that really does not give a damn about anybody or anything.

        Oh, they all claim to care about our country’s freedom, liberty and all that other crap.

        But when it comes right down to it – they want to do what they want, when they want to do it, how they want to do it and everybody be damned. After all, God has told them they are right.

    • I agree, Paula. There is much too much that is not known. All (imho) that can be said is that the decedent was in a controversy with the IRS, and that his reaction was, to understate it a bit, irrational and counter-productive (his estate is still liable, under transferee liability).

    • lilacluvr

      “ThinkProgress caught up with Rep. Steve King (R-IA) at CPAC to talk about the attack in Texas. Asked if the right-wing anti-tax rhetoric might have motivated the attack, King implicitly agreed, noting that he had been a leading opponent of the IRS for some time. He noted that although the attack was “sad,” “by the same token,” it was justified because once the the right succeeds at abolishing the IRS, “it’s going to be a happy day for America.”

      Paula – Read this section of the article – Rep. King did justify the attack and he is stating that once the ‘right’ succeeds at abolishing the IRS…..

      So, King has the ambition to keep on advocating to abolish the IRS and if that never happens – then what? More planes into more buildings?

      • Editorial comment was that he agreed. HE did not say “I agree” anywhere in the article. HE did not say it was justified–the writer editorialized that in between quotes. They mixed fact with opinion and made it all look like fact. It is sloppy journalism at best and yellow journalism at worst. Sad.

        I am not agreeing with King. He should be lambasted for being against the collection arm of the US Government. Who the hell does he think foots the bill for so much of what he does? But let’s lambast him for the things he said and not put words in his mouth is all I’m saying.

  2. fnord

    European citizens have at least one advantage over Americans. Their countries are geographically small and it’s easier for large numbers of people to gather in one place.

    More than 200,000 people took to the streets of Athens on Wednesday to protest the Greek government’s pay cuts, tax hikes, hiring freezes, and other austerity measures. Also, more than two million of the five million-strong Greek workforce walked off the job to join a 24-hour strike called by the General Confederation of Greek Workers. “The crisis should be paid for by the plutocracy,” read one protester’s banner. Another one called for “Permanent and steady jobs for all.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7039360.ece

  3. fnord

    An example of the type of overreactions and spreading of rumors that causes people to believe complete lies.

    Obama’s election hasn’t been the silver bullet that gun rights activists feared—in fact, gun-rights advocates have successfully pushed for increased gun rights in many states. Last week Virginia passed a bill allowing people to carry concealed weapons in bars and other places that serve booze, less than three years after the Virginia Tech massacre. Montana and Tennessee passed the first laws exempting guns and ammunition made in their states from federal regulation last year. Arizona and Wyoming are pondering a half-dozen proposals, including allowing residents to carry concealed weapons without permits, while Indiana blocked employers from banning guns in vehicles on company property. Although Obama signed bills allowing guns in national parks and luggage on Amtrak trains, gun-rights advocates are still skeptical, as the chief executive of the NRA put it, “we know that the first chance Obama gets, he will pounce on us.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/us/24guns.html?hp

    • It is in the best interest of the NRA to whip up hysteria over gun legislation. It increases their membership and membership costs money. It increases their visibility and visibility increases membership, which costs money. The NRA is using this fake anti-gun legislation hysteria to increase their funds and their power. They are a disgusting bunch of hypocrites and if I were a gun owner, I would NEVER belong to the NRA. The NRA is a giant, rotting manure pile.

      DISCLOSURE: I am not a gun owner, don’t know how to shoot one, but would not support most gun control measures since there is always the possibility that I might need a gun to protect me from a) distraught NRA members; or b) my own government (municipal, state or federal).

      • tosmarttobegop

        How true, I former gun lobbyist said that exact thing about the NRA along with several other groups.
        Anti-gun, pro-life and pro-choice all use the tactic of when they want more money they put the word out that there is an attack upon the position.

        People suddenly send money to support the cause and there was not a real threat.

    • fnord

      Although I certainly understand that our rights are eroding and our government has her nose where it shouldn’t be, I find those “distraught NRA members” to be a much more immediate danger.

      Besides there is an attitude my hubby terms the “I’ve got a gun” attitude, and those types should always be avoided. Luckily, they’re pretty easy to identify as their obsession is usually on display even in a casual interaction.

  4. tosmarttobegop

    I finally got a informed answer to the question of why is it that most stores who carry ammunition.
    Are always either out or so low that many of the most popular calibers are out?

    It seem between individuals buying as much as they can and hording.
    Places like Bullet stop are going around snatching up as much as they can to take back and charge a higher price.

    Ammo manufacturers are adding shifts and producing at record levels and still can not keep up with the demand. But unlike what many were suspecting it has not been because of anything that Obama has done.

  5. fnord

    Looks like they may have jerry rigged the ‘competition’ so Boeing can’t miss. In fact, appears possible Northrop Grumman Corp may not quote the job.

    Pentagon sets new tanker rules with slight changes

    • lilacluvr

      And I wonder if Boeing will be outsourcing those jobs?

      I’m sure we will be seeing the high-fives of Republicans giving Tiarht credit for fighting for the working man.

      Yeah, this will benefit the working man but my question is – in what country?

  6. lilacluvr

    The gun control debate is just like the abortion debate – IMHO.

    Neither issue will be resolved because they are both being used as political wedge issues to keep voters lined up on either sides of the political spectrum.

    We have more guns on the street than ever and we do nothing but sit around and fight about gun control?

    Rather than fighting about who can or cannot buy guns, let’s enforce the current laws when those guns are used inappropriately.

    But there’s the rub, isn’t it? WE have already seen people defend the Texas guy that flew his plane into the IRS building and calling him a hero. We have also seen people calling Scott Roeder a hero.

    With thinking like that, this gun debate will never be resolved – much like the abortion debate.

  7. Something to consider:

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1967580,00.html?xid=huffpo-direct

    The author makes a few points that, all in all, I consider valid. Perhaps the most important one is about certification for certain occupations. Implicitly, this recognizes the need for additional education (or training, should the reader prefer). In the current society, few high school graduates are equipped to work at most careers/trades/occupations, and thus additional education is or will be needed. Not as many as we seem to think really need a baccalaureate degree.

  8. lilacluvr

    I just saw on another blog a proud Conservative Republican advocating for abolishing public education. And there are many just like this man who want to see the Deparment of Education shut down and all public teachers fired.

    If what 6176 says is true and further education/training is necessary, how will that be accomplished when we have a group of supposedly educated people advocating for abolishing public education? Without a basic education, there will be people like the old days who do nothing but go out and beg, be servants or be tied to a master for their entire lives?

    Is that really what these Conservative Republicans want? Seems like it to me.

    • These folks seem to want private education, as opposed to public education, which some consider little more than brainwashing (liberal, of course). If the family can’t afford it? Well, the parents just need to get a better job. /sarcasm

      • lilacluvr

        It seems they want the good ol’ days to come back – enough poor people around for the wealthy’s sweatshops.

        And God bless us everyone.

      • lilacluvr

        Of course, these folks also want their private education to be subsidized by that evil government.

        They want the money with no strings attached.

      • fnord

        They don’t want their children attending school with the common riff raff.

  9. lilacluvr

    Since we are talking about abolishing public education, I wonder if any of these Republican geniuses have thought about something.

    What if the kid that is destined to find the cure for some terminal disease is prevented from getting his education because the rich man that advocated for abolishing public education dies from the very same terminal disease.

    Would that be karma big time?

    • What if the kid that is destined to find the cure for some terminal disease is prevented from getting his education because the rich man that advocated for abolishing public education dies from the very same terminal disease.

      I don’t think that fits with their worldview that wealthy people are somehow better than poor people because if poor people were smarter/ would work more/tried harder/was less lazy, that they would be rich too. And they’re not. So, if the poor kid is smart enough to create a cure, he would find a way to get a college education and become a doctor. And they firmly believe that.

      • lilacluvr

        I know they believe that but who is to say they are correct in their thinking?

        These people also believe in the Reagan scam of trickle-down economics. They believed it would fool alot of people and they were correct in that assessment.

  10. NightHawk

    Private schools don’t bother me as much as home schooling. That’s a little scary. Almost no regulation and home schooled kids don’t get the social interaction that kids in public schools get.

    • In dealing with clients who home school, the response I receive to the “social interaction” issue is that there are many activities that home schooled students may involve themselves in, followed by a laundry list thereof. What is missing is, of course (and generalizing here), the interaction on a social basis with students who are different from the home schooled student, e.g., different religiously, or ethnically, or economically or . . .

      To me, the interaction with those “different” is a fundamental component of ‘education’, albeit not in the academic sense.

    • And, the loose standards are scary. There are parents who hew to a structured academic path, but there are those who do not. Reports are to be filed with the Kansas Department of Education annually, with which I’ve no familiarity, but I suspect qualification of activities, along with quantification of the same, are subject to interpretation.

      • I knew a family once that home-schooled. Their oldest daughter got to be about sixteen years old and ran away from home claiming her father was controlling and abusive. She tried to enroll at the local high school but her parents had never filed any of the paperwork they were supposed to or given her any tests, so the school district had no way to place her in the appropriate grade. I lost track of her and don’t know if she ever found a way to get in or just got a GED instead. I felt the parents should be charged with neglect. They had three more children at home. But nothing ever happened to them and they continued to “home school” the remaining children.

  11. fnord

    Isn’t it true that some home schoolers curriculum is through public school systems? There is a ‘seat day’ annually in USD 259 at which point each student must be in a seat in a school in order to be counted, and the rest of the time the interaction might be via the internet (at best). I think the purpose of ‘seat day’ is to ensure state funding for each student. And I think the ‘relationship’ between some of these students counted is almost nil.

    • Yes, fnord, you are correct. Some home schoolers’ take advantage of the USD 259 (or other districts; I believe there is a popular one based in Lawrence) curriculum via the internet. There is some way these students are ‘counted’ for state funding purposes, the precise nature of which is foreign to me.

      The ‘seat day’ for the fall (the most important one) is Sept. 20; I don’t know the spring date (used for supplemental funding) but IIRC, it is around January 20.

  12. fnord

    I hope I’m very wrong, but sometimes it seems the education provided by completing college isn’t enhanced much when compared to what was provided through high school not too many years ago.

    Am I being cynical? I hope so. And, as always, generalizations are usually inaccurate so maybe this is much more limited than I suspect.

    • It is my thought that this is true concerning community colleges, and may apply to some four year majors.

      • As the recipient of an Associates Degree from a community college, I would incline to agree with your assessment as well. The work didn’t seem too hard, though there was more of it.

        I don’t think it does anyone much good to get a degree. I got mine in Paralegal Studies because that was supposedly the hot job and I wanted to work in medical malpractice law. The salary I was able to earn as a paralegal was ridiculously low. I could have made more as a legal secretary starting out. And since I needed more money, I ended up doing something different. I don’t see my degree making much of a difference now as nobody wants to pay me my current salary to be a paralegal. So much for that.

        That said, I wish we could move toward a system where those who wish to learn have access to college and that college was seen as more than a place to get a piece of paper so that you can make more money. I know so many kids whose parents paid for college and they partied their way through and came out with a “business” degree. They didn’t care about learning–they were there for the fun and the party and that peice of paper. How many kids cleaning rooms down the street at the Holiday Inn, or waiting tables, or loading trucks for FedEx would have made more of the opportunity if given?

  13. David B

    Public Education is socialism! What is the matter with you?

    • lilacluvr

      If it isn’t socialism – it has to be another one of those ‘ism’ words, huh?

      LOL

      • lilacluvr

        On the other blog I referenced yesterday, that person said that Public Education was the #10 plank of Communism.

        Like I said before – these folks will find any ‘ism’ word to continue their quest to make America even dumber than we are currently.