Closing arguments this morning and then the case goes to the jury.
What does everyone think? We are still in Kansas (and that does have a potential impact!).
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Closing arguments this morning and then the case goes to the jury.
What does everyone think? We are still in Kansas (and that does have a potential impact!).
Filed under abortion
PrairiePopulistsAndProgressives.net 
In the case of a hung jury, is the case retried?
Generally, it does, especially a high profile case such as this. Exceptions include where the great majority of jurors vote for acquittal, signaling a major problem with the prosecution’s case.
The longer the jury is out (in this case), the higher the chance of a hung jury, imho.
To respond to the question posed in the header: it seems clear to me that the Defendant admitted in his testimony each and every element needed to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt on first degree murder.
Just as Scott Roeder ‘thinks’ his actions were justified, so could any member(s) of the jury. From my perspective if the jury followed the legal directions given them they couldn’t consider how they feel, only the evidence provided and whether or not the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt the crimes he is accused of were committed.
I know, in a perfect world…
I agree that if the jury followed the law, as given in the Court’s instructions, and the properly admitted evidence, the jury should return a guilty verdict on all charges (let’s not forget the two counts of aggravated assault). But, jurors being human and all, the specter of jury nullification looms (well, sticks its nose over the transom)…
If the prosecution did their job right where jury members are concerned, there shouldn’t be a problem. Wackos should have been weeded out. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
Roeder committed first degree murder. If that’s the jurors only option and if no wacko slipped in, undetected, there really isn’t a question, is there?
BTW, I watched a Discovery channel program late last night on BTK. It picked up where he reappeared to police and led through the investigation.
Both BTK (Rader) and Roeder committed murder. BTK saved the taxpayers and his family the spectacle and expense (both money and emotion) of a trial, Roeder didn’t.
That is because Roeder wanted this trial. It is his platform for his case of martyrdom in the public court. If he had not wanted to get caught, he would have concealed his crime better.
The fact that he chose to do this in a public place, the fact that he chose to do this in a house of worship, the fact that he did not conceal his identity, and the fact that he did not put up a fight when he was arrested all tell me that he orchestrated this with the direct intention of being caught and put on trial so that he could have a pulpit from which to preach his self-righteousness. Which is why I was so pissed that the judge gave it to him. But, I guess, from a legal standpoint, I can understand why the judge did it, to a certain degree.
With regard to the two counts of aggravated assault, both these victims had just witnessed this man putting a loaded gun to a man’s head, pulling the trigger and killing him. The same gun was pointed at them and they were told by this killer that if they didn’t leave him alone to escape the scene of the crime, they too would be killed.
You think they didn’t believe him?
“If someone shows you who they are, believe them.” — Maya Angelou
Here’s the link to the judge’s comments on the “necessity defense.”
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/01/11/roeder.abortion.murder.trial/index.html
Anyone who deludes themself into supporting this necessity defense is not using the brain God gave them. If Roeder can justify murdering a doctor who was legally providing healthcare for women, just because Roeder personally disagreed with what the doctor was doing, then many other folks could justify murder as well. I could justify the murder of a soldier by saying that I had to kill the soldier before he killed other people. I could justify the murder of anti-abortion fanatics by saying I had to murder them before they killed doctors who perform abortions.
Many people have said that a “not guilty” verdict in this trial would make it open season on abortion providers. I say it also would make an open season on religious fanatics–specifically of the Operation Rescue kind.
But how many pro-life advocates would be tempted to take advantage of that open season?
The taking of a life in retribution for taking a life makes no sense.
“The taking of a life in retribution for taking a life makes no sense.” – wicked.
Justification may be found in the Old Testament; you know, that part of the canon that was ‘replaced’ by the Gospels, except when it’s convenient to those ‘believers’ to rely upon it to support a position, action, etc., that (but for the Epistles of Paul) would be antithetical to the preaching of Jesus. Thus, ‘an eye for an eye’ rather than ‘turn the other cheek’.
My perception is that most people in the pro-choice movement are rational and reasonable. But every group has it’s fanatics and it is always a possiblity that there are those that are tired of having to protect the LEGAL right of women to make their own reproductive choices because some religious fanatics disagree and decide to take matters into their own hands.
The taking of a life in retribution makes no sense, it’s true, but it has been happening in the history of the human race since recorded history.
Roeder’s attorney compared Roeder to Martin Luther King.
Then said they were not asking the jury to leave their common sense at the door? Well… you just did sir!
THE JURY IS IN WITH A DECISION!
http://www.kwch.com/Global/story.asp?S=11900719
Jury deliberations took 37 minutes.
http://live.cnn.com/
won’t be long now
CH 12 will broadcast live
Guilty of all three charges.
Just as I ……t…stated
Of course, I guess the sentence has not yet been handed down.
Anyway, sanity prevails
Thank goodness sanity prevailed. We all acknowledge there are times citizens from our state don’t show the positives, or the sensibilities of the majority. I’m sure all states have their own nutjobs and perhaps it’s because I pay closer attention to those from Kansas, but it seems ours get national attention too often.
Prosecution will be asking for Hard 50 sentence.
While it is a relief that he was found guilty on all charges, I still think that the Justice Department should not only pursue charges against Roeder for civil rights violations, but a deep investigation into the possibility of a conspiracy on the part of the anti-abortion forces in this crime.
This was a terroristic act aimed towards providers and women everywhere. I would like to see a full report on the depth of involvement of the fanatical groups and politicians that Roeder was involved with all these years.
I suspect that full report on involvement of fantatical groups and politicians will never be done.
I’ve heard that issue has already been looked at and found to be nothing. Even though it was reported Roeder had the phone number of a leader of the anti-abortion group in the car he was driving while leaving the murder scene.
But, hey, did you all notice Roeder testified that he became born-again from watching another one of our fantatical friends – the 700 Club of Pat Robertson?
Let’s see, Pat Robertson once said that Hugo Chavez needed to be assassinated. Good ol’ Pat also said that people should pray that certain Supreme Court justices should die from heart attacks.
And then we wonder why Roeder, and people like him, think murder is okay?
The feds are investigating!
Good to know, fnord.
Are they still investigating? Nola Foulston addressed that issue at the news conference. She said that her part was only on behalf of the State of Kansas and the federal authorities would do their part (or something to that effect).
It would seem so, from Ms Foulston’s remarks.
That IS good to know.
I don’t know how Operation Rescue can pretend that they didn’t have any idea what was going on when this guy was in regular contact with them, when people who knew him stated that it was obvious how unstable he was, that it was Operation Rescue that was encouraging people to invade Dr. Tiller’s privacy by giving out information to people so that they could harrass him. What else would be their intention when they give out that kind of information?
I should think that enough evidence may even exist that Dr. Tiller’s family (or maybe even pro-choice groups?) could go after Operation Rescue civilly for damages. Wouldn’t it be some justice if Operation Rescue had to shut down because all of their funds were drained in defending themselves and/or damage awards? Makes me smile just thinking about it.
Roeder did say he had talked to other about the need to Kill the Abortionists those he said it was not by name. He spoke to like minded individuals but not as a organization.
This could be nothing more then like you blurting out “some one should kill that guy!”.
That could be used as evidence in court but not as an indictment of those whom heard you saying it as a conspiracy. It would fall to the judgment call as to whether it be reported or not.
People when emotional say stupid things without any intent to carry it out.
Fnord touched on something I thought about, “Kansas home of late term abortion….. Kansas home of the extreme religious zealots!”. We are so tainted in the mind of the nation by both.
I hate the idea that in a sense Roeder and the extremists won, the clinic closed and they were able to stop women’s health care in Wichita. By the sacrifice of Roeder and Dr. Tiller, now how many others of Roeder extreme will be willing to sacrifice themselves for the same accomplishment elsewhere?
Shamefully though, I am relieved that one part of the curse of Kansas is gone.
Wichita has stopped being the focus and perception of the abortion issue with the trial over and the clinic closed. But still I feel anger that the reality is that the bastards have won here.
I do wonder why the Tiller family made the decision not to allow the clinic to reopen under another doctor. Was it ever explained?
I can not swear to it but my understanding was that at the time it just was too soon and they were not ready to put someone else’s life endanger. The clinic was Dr. Tiller’s life’s work and they were not ready to stop thinking in that terms.
That’s pretty much what I got from it, but I wasn’t sure.
Abortions happen every day all across Wichita and every other place all around the world. Maybe not the ones that involve finding out late in the pregnancy that the infant hasn’t any chance at living. Or those who involve the women learning late in their term that they face their own death if a pregnancy continues. We all know the circumstances, and are aware of the heart-breaking decisions some women must make. Dr. Tiller’s practice saw women from all over the world who faced those most tragic decisions. Now that his practice is closed some of those women may not receive life-saving medical care. Abortions do, and have always, happened in doctors offices, hospitals and back alleys just like they did before Roe v Wade.
No one here is naive enough to think women of means faced the protesters at Dr. Tiller’s clinic. No one here thinks that women of means would be seen entering, waiting in the waiting room of a place that provides ONE service. No. As in the past their doctors arranged a much more private way to address their reproductive needs. And, always there have been (and will be) women who couldn’t afford more than the coat hanger or just maybe a cheap back alley provider.
That’s the part I will never understand about the debate. Making abortions illegal again won’t stop them, won’t reduce the number performed, it will only make them illegal.
Like saving the blastocysts from research.
How can a person who truly holds a belief against abortion think if they’re out of sight or illegal, they aren’t happening? That alone tells me that person isn’t actually capable of rational thought.
Don’t use the blastocyst stored at the fertility clinic, and no longer wanted or needed, for research. Instead, throw it away out back in the incinerator where we can ignore that it is being destroyed.
Make abortions illegal so we can ignore that they happen in the same numbers, in the same frequency as when they are legal.
Many things that is not wanted to be discussed or acknowledge is handled like “Don’t ask-don’t tell”.
Code phrases like “She went back East to visit her Aunt” everyone knew what that actually meant in those days. I pity that poor girl who actually did have an Aunt back East and did actually go for a visit!
DNC, female problems, the list can go on as to how abortion was referred to when someone did not want to say the real reason.
But yes I was pointing that out the day of Dr. Tiller’s murder that Roeder had not saved one unborn.
Heh. 37 minutes.
The only thing about this sad, sad story that makes me smile.