Roeder’s Family Surprised By His Actions

 

As the title of this article says Scott Roeder’s family share his history.  From the above photo, he doesn’t look a lot different than those of us who lived through the time.  He had some odd ball ideas about the government.   Who didn’t know people at the time who had similar odd ball ideas? 

The Freemen have largely declined as a recognized anti-government hate group.

Except for the fact that he was arrested with bomb making equipment, would it have been possible to see this coming?  It should have been, in my humble opinion.

iggy donnelly

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109 Comments

Filed under abortion, Crimes, hate groups, History, Wingnuts!

109 responses to “Roeder’s Family Surprised By His Actions

  1. Iggy, I was under the impression that many were NOT surprised.

    Lindsey Roeder said her ex-husband never thought he was mentally unstable, but “everyone else did.”

    Delusions of granduer and doing god’s work, I’d say.

  2. From what I read most everyone who knew him was aware of his obsessions but didn’t think him capable of cold-hearted murder.

  3. There’s an article in this morning’s newspaper that talks of a custody battle involving Roeder. The woman who is the mother of his child won custody because of his mental instability.

    Seems many were aware of his instability.

    Think about the people you suspect of being mentally unstable (several from BTSNBN come to my mind). If they were accused of a crime this heinous would it surprise you? Probably, but it wouldn’t shock you at all.

    Then think about those you’ve never wondered about. What, if anything, would push them off the edge?

  4. frigginloon

    Morning Prairie P&P’s, boy what a tough time for you guys this week. Thoughts and prayers to all of you.
    “Then think about those you’ve never wondered about. What, if anything, would push them off the edge?”
    Fnord, you only have to look at the last 5 minutes of the Britain’s Got Talent to see how much a fine line people walk. Blind Freddy could have seen Susan Boyle was having a major melt down. Watch the faces of the two hosts, they weren’t smiling but looked completely stressed. At no stage did someone step in and quietly remove her instead the camera zoomed in on her confused state. It is alleged she went ballistic behind the scenes throwing things and going into a tirade. People under extreme stress are capable of anything.

  5. wicked

    Hindsight is 20/20.

  6. lilacluvr

    I heard on KWCH news this morning that they suspect it was Roeder that poured glue in Tiller Clinic’s locks just last week. I suspect we are going to find out alot in the next few weeks about this man and his friends from within the group of like-minded people.

  7. wicked

    Loon,

    I must’ve missed that, although I thought I watched the last few minutes, at least when the winners were announced. It’s a pity they built up Miss Boyle so much. I blame the press. A win was nearly guaranteed. Then to not get it? Kinda sucks.

    She has a marvelous voice that brought me to tears each time I heard her sing. I hope she gets some rest, then takes advantage of her popularity and talent and makes some money. She deserves it. Her personal life should not be involved.

    • frigginloon

      I agree Wicked, she deserved to win. Unfortunately the show knew she had many issues and allowed her to continue despite several incidents leading up to the finals. A duty of care. Here is hoping she recovers quickly. Her brother said he thinks the melt down was due to her thinking she had let everyone down. I wouldn’t wish media spotlight on anyone especially if you are a fragile old soul!

  8. lilacluvr

    I have another question that may seem odd, but why is it usually a white male in their 40’s or 50’s that are doing this anti-abortion violence?

    I know there are women in the pro-life movement capable of violence, but for the most part it has been white males doing the most extreme things.

    Is it just me seeing this trend or has anyone else noticed it?

    • I haven’t lilac, but also haven’t paid attention to who and what age and such. Interesting! Could it be that men are more prone to violent behavior than women? Please, gentlemen, don’t jump — it’s not an accusation, only a question. Wasn’t Dr. Tiller shot the first time by a woman?

      • lilacluvr

        Yes, Dr. Tiller was shot in the arms by a woman – Shelley Shannon (?) She is in a prison in Topeka (I think) and it was reported that Roeder would visit her.

        Like I said, I know women are capable of violence but when I think of the abortion doctors killed or their clinics being blown up and staff killed, it seems to be white males.

        And, I am not trying to say it is all the males’ fault and I know it is not right to paint all white males with a broad brush. – So, all males on this blog – I am just asking for any thoughts or if anyone else noticed this.

    • wicked

      Why is it MEN? What’s their stake in this? Control of women is my only guess.

      Men are the ones running these organizations, not women. Men are the ones calling for anti-choice laws, for Roe v. Wade to be overturned, for women NOT to have a choice. Men are the ones stirring up and leading women against their own best interests: control over their own bodies.

      Men have NO reason to be involved in the abortion issue, except to stand BEHIND women (hard for many to take) and support them. Other than that, they should Stand The Floor Up.

  9. I hope Ms. Boyle’s future leads her where she is happy, content and peaceful. If she is unable to handle fame (and who could?) then I hope she continues in her Scottish village and sings where it is happy to sing. There are worse things than being poor — it’s just hard to realize that when you are poor. 😉

  10. lilacluvr

    My thoughts on Susan Boyle is that after she blew everyone away with her beautiful voice and talent, the show business of glamor just had to make her into their view of what a star should look like and the right clothes to wear, etc.

    Why can’t we as a society learn to appreciate people for their talents and just be happy?

    • wicked

      lilac, the rush to change Susan Boyle didn’t last long. A haircut, a little color, a bit of eyebrow tweezing, and that was about it. Pretty much what most women would do if suddenly in the public eye.

      • lilacluvr

        You’re right about the actual makeover but with so much worldwide press – was it too much for a woman from a small village to deal with?

        But I saw day after day the morning talk shows doing these ‘virtual makeovers’ for Susan Boyle. It seemed like that was all anyone was talking about – how could Susan Boyle appear to be a star – rather than just accepting her talented beautiful voice?

        After all, if Mick Jagger has been a star for decades – is beauty really a requirement?

      • wicked

        Oh, lilac, you’re so right. And considering the papparazzi problem in Britain, nothing surprises me. Yes, I’m sure the media was a major problem and led to much of what happened, from the makeover to the meltdown. I hope she gets to sing her songs–for the world, if that’s what she wants. I’d certainly like to hear her sing more.

  11. What I hope for is that whatever Roeder did he bragged about to some of the other nutcases who are members of the same organizations he belongs to. Then we can get down to investigating the whole bunch!

    • lilacluvr

      But have you noticed all the backpedaling these groups did to say that he was NOT a regular member of their group?

      Did you happen to see Sarah Palin’s statement regarding Tiller’s murder? She called it a tragedy and that it did a disservice to the pro-life message because violence is not the answer. I never saw anything in her statement where she condemned the murderer – just that it was a disservice to their message.

      When news media were saying that all these pro-life groups were condemning the murder – I had to listen carefully to their statements and each one was basically trying to distance themselves from Roeder but still saying Tiller was a mass murderer, etc. So, where was the condemnation?

  12. wicked

    I can’t say Roeder is all that intelligent. Or maybe it’s the insanity that keeps him from appearing to have an IQ lower than 50. Did he think he was going to drive away and nobody would think anything about it? He headed HOME for pete’s sake!!

    • 6176746f6c6c65

      I’ve a feeling he didn’t think his license number had been obtained; that he had left so quickly, no one had had a chance to get it, or if there had been, it would be wrong or a partial. That is more common than someone getting the tag right, actually more than one someone. Plus, he apparently got held up a bit in his exit, again something I’m sure he didn’t think would happen.

  13. 6176746f6c6c65

    It would be better if Roeder told them what he was going to do in advance and received advice on the best way to proceed, or received offers of assistance for afterwards, etc.

    While accessory after the fact is something, it would not in and of itself support further investigation, especially if counsel reached a quick plea deal on the accessory charge. Conspiracy, though; aye, that’s something worthwhile!

  14. Don’t you guess they’re looking at conspiracy?

  15. 6176746f6c6c65

    Yes, I do. The anti-abortion folks were certainly trying to head this off by their public statements which took great pains to distance themselves from Mr. Roeder.

    As to the condemnatory statements, well, there’s really nothing to add to what has already been noted. It does appear that there is a big PR problem for them, one which should not be cured by wild goose chases for conspiracy or RICO charges if there isn’t evidence adduced to support the same fairly quickly.

    • lilacluvr

      I agree – charges should only be brought if they can really stick. Otherwise, these groups will win because then they can say they were targeted by the evil government for simply expressing their freedom of speech, etc.

  16. lilacluvr

    But do you expect Roeder to ‘rat’ out his fellow group members? I expect Roeder sees himself as a martyr for the cause and is more than willing to take all the glory.

    But I am thinking with rational thoughts here. Whenever a person is capable of walking into a church and gunning down a man in cold blood – that person is not exactly thinking rationally – is he?

    But I wonder, how did Roeder seem to know where Tiller was in the church at that precise moment? Was Roeder in the crowd that day and was stalking Tiller or did someone else track Tiller’s whereabouts and know that he would be the usher that day and passing out bulletins in the lobby?

    Just think – if you went into a church that you did not know anything about to find one certain person – could you do it and then shoot them down with only one bullet?

    I just think there are alot of facts we don’t know yet. And God help us all, this town is going to flooded with national media. I’m sure Roeder will demand a trial – to further his cause.

  17. 6176746f6c6c65

    Roeder will demand a trial; that’s a given.

    What will be interesting is whether defense counsel will push for a mental eval, or whether the prosecution will seek one.

    • lilacluvr

      Legally speaking – does it matter if the defense or prosecution ask for the mental eval?

      I would think the prosecution would seek one so that any mental stability issue would not be able to brought up on appeal, if convicted.

      And the defense would want one to show the client had mental instability – to help their case.

      Also – does Roeder have to submit to a mental eval if he does not want one? Does he have any right to refuse?

  18. Bad Biker

    For your own sanity, stay away from the nameless blog – the anti-choice folks are frothing at their keyboards.

    It seems that those on the fringes of any issue taint the issue for all that hold a similar view. I can respect a sincerely held pro-life position while strongly disagreeing with it, but the venom that comes with the rhetoric of the fringe elements makes a reasonable debate impossible.

    To be honest, it is time for reasonable people on BOTH sides of the issue to seize forum from those on the fringe. Then perhaps, we can begin addressing the problem, and not just the symptom.

    Contrary to the inflammatory speech from the radical pro-life wing, those that are pro-choice are not pro-abortion.

    I tried to point that out yesterday on the “nameless” blog – for my efforts I was called pro-death by the Virgin Marine.

    End of debate.

    • lilacluvr

      I visited the other blog just to see the comments and one really stood out as rather odd. It was RedWhiteNBlue with some rambling about Tiller was actually the one that planned his own death because he was dying from prostate cancer and wanted to go out in a blaze of glory (or something to that effect). This poster closed their posting with the fact that they knew this to be true because Jesus told them in a dream.

      Further down, someone else said this posting was sarcasm.

      But when I read this posting, I thought to myself – now if I was a person easily led by anyone who claimed to have Jesus speak to them directly (like Pat Robertson does all the time) – then there is a chance that some people would take this story and run with it.

      Or was it just sarcasm? I don’t know the many different nics over on that blog but I don’t recall this RedWhiteNBlue person.

      Did anyone else see this or do you know who this poster is?

  19. It is very common in any murder trial for a competency evaluation to be ordered. That will happen for sure.

    The competency evaluation questions are essentially: Does this defendant understand the charges that are being brought against him/her? And is this defendant able to assist his attorney in presenting a defense? The criteria are pretty low standards. It has been said that you’d have to confuse the judge with a grapefruit to not pass this test.

    • wicked

      I’ve always felt anyone who killed would have to be somewhat insane. That doesn’t excuse murder, doesn’t provide a defense of any kind.

  20. Public defenders used to want to say “if this defendant is not following my advice, he is not competent to stand trial!”

    Every person in this country, God love it, has a right to be a fool, despite what public defenders think.

  21. To clarify the above: the competency to stand trial questions specifically state that the inability to pass the competency criteria are due to a “mental illness/defect”.

  22. Bad Biker

    (Trying to post – WordPress is PO’ed at me.)

    For your own sanity, stay away from the nameless blog – the anti-choice folks are frothing at their keyboards.

    It seems that those on the fringes of any issue taint the issue for all that hold a similar view. I can respect a sincerely held pro-life position while strongly disagreeing with it, but the venom that comes with the rhetoric of the fringe elements makes a reasonable debate impossible.

    To be honest, it is time for reasonable people on BOTH sides of the issue to seize forum from those on the fringe. Then perhaps, we can begin addressing the problem, and not just the symptom.

    Contrary to the inflammatory speech from the radical pro-life wing, those that are pro-choice are not pro-abortion.

    I tried to point that out yesterday on the “nameless” blog – for my efforts I was called pro-death by the Virgin Marine.

    End of debate.

  23. Bad Biker

    So I end up with a double post – my bad sorry.

    By the way, I consider any pro-lifer that wants to ban ALL abortion (Brownback/Kline) or to deny exceptions to late-term abortions to be a radical fringe player.

  24. Mon key H awk describes those who want to ban all abortions best — they are advocating for illegal abortions.

    Women through the ages have made difficult decisions for their very own reasons, and will continue to make those decisions whether abortion is or is not legal. Ignoring reality doesn’t make it go away.

    Lilac posted yesterday about the D&C’s performed at hospitals, and mentioned the dangerous back-alley abortions. Through the ages women have done what they had to do, legality isn’t going to change that.

    How many children live in foster care, on the streets, or in orphanages? How many people remember the study done years ago which tied the drop in crime in NYC to abortion being made legal? Why don’t we talk about those issues which should always be part of this debate?

  25. Either the defense or prosecuting team can ask for a competency evaluation. Judges almost never turn them down.

    In the old days (the 1980’s) if someone refused to cooperate with a competency evaluation they were sent to a state hospital to get one. Most defendants were interested in avoiding that possibility.

    I recall seeing one guy who was faking mental illness (and not very well). My supervisor at the time said he was demonstrating his competency by doing that, i.e. he wished to avoid punishment, and was planning a strategy to accomplish that. My supervisor was kind of a cold hearted person – he had seen too many personality disorders in too short of a time span.

  26. Actually, fnord, that was abortion in California. I loved that study, it was sure to make everybody angry.

  27. lilacluvr

    I personally don’t advocate abortion for any reason but I don’t feel it is my place to tell other women what to do – nor is it the government’s role.

    But I do believe there are circumstances that abortion is the best solution. Thank God, I was never faced with making such a hard decision when I was having my children.

    I consider myself pro-choice and not pro-death.

    But I also would like to see our country treat the already-born with more dignity than we do. That’s where alot of those radical fringe anti-abortion people differ with me – they are only interested in the pre-born and could care less what happens to these children once they are born.

    • lilacluvr

      I need to clarify my first statement – what I meant is that I personally have concerns about abortions being done out of convenience or for any ‘whim’ of the mother – not the fact that I am against all abortions. I would think if women are contemplating an abortion, that a thoughtful process was in place to make sure that the right decision is being made.

      Abortion is a tough issue and will never be solved with the current two-camps entrenched in their own ideologies.

      And just because abortions are illegal – does it make any less common? Sometimes I think these Radical pro-lifers would be just fine to return to those days of – not knowing.

      Out of sight – out of mind?

  28. Bad Biker

    Not that of am an advocate for the position, but I am guessing that the first thing Roeder’s lawyer will do is request a change of venue and it will be granted – probably to Topeka or Hutchinson.

  29. The change of venue might happen, but it is hard to know what that would accomplish. This news story was international in its scope.

  30. I have thought, maybe incorrectly, that if a woman was considering an abortion, that might be a good enough reason to say she should be able to do that.

    I can’t imagine, that a woman would approach the problem in a non-serious way. I suppose I could be wrong, but if a woman was approaching the decision in a non-serious way, that would be adequate justification for her receiving one, IMHO.

    • Yes, Iggy. It should be an indication she isn’t serious enough to be a parent.

      Do you think the question of when life begins will ever be settled? I don’t see how it can be. Even if it became a scientific fact, some would not respect or believe the science.

      Mon key H awk suggested that someone go pick the apple blossoms from the tree and make a pie from those baby apples.

      That question that won’t ever be settled to everyone’s satisfaction will always keep this issue controversial.

    • lilacluvr

      I, like you Iggy, think any woman would seriously think about the abortion before having one – but being a woman myself who has gone through childbirth twice and one miscarriage – I know there are those days when a woman’s hormones are bouncing off the walls and if she has had a fight with husband or boyfriend, then that single thought of just getting ‘unpregnant’ might pop into her head (that’s an example of my whim moment)

      I guess what I’m saying is that I believe abortion should be available and legal – but should be approached with careful thought and knowledge of everything this procedure brings with it – both physical and emotional effects.

      Like I said – abortion is a tough issue and there is no cookie cutter solution. Every case is different and should be allowed to be treated as such.

      My reservations about abortions are only my personal feelings and I still believe that I, nor the government, has the right to tell other women what to do with their lives.

      But it is my belief that I can fight for and support those politicians who will see to it that our government does support the true pro-life policies of a clean and safe environment, affordable and accessible health care, good-paying jobs so people can support themselves and treating all families – whether single, married, gay or straight – with dignity.

    • wicked

      The good part of having abortion legal is that it isn’t nearly as easy to have one “on a whim”. My friend who had one years ago went through 3 days of intensive counseling. My daughter was telling about an online friend who recently terminated a pregnancy, also because of health reasons. She participated in a sonogram and was given details on how the procedure would be done. It isn’t like one can walk into a clinic, say “I want an abortion”, and it’s done then and there.

      I also don’t think it’s “right” to have an abortion just for the sake of birth control. But then I’ve also seen birth control fail.

  31. lilacluvr

    But if Roeder’s lawyer was smart – wouldn’t he be looking for those pro-lifers who would be sympathetic to the cause? So, maybe Wichita is the best place for this trial?

    This will be interesting to watch. But I am still saddened and heartsick to think we even have to go through this. You know the national media and international media are going to be camped out for weeks.

    I wanted to mention – I didn’t realize until yesterday that Dr. Tiller’s family had been killed in an accident and he took over his father’s practice and Tiller wanted to be a dermatologist. Instead, he took over the father’s practice and one day a patient asked him if he was going to do abortions and that was when he found out that his father had been performing them.

    Like I said yesterday, abortions have been performed for years before Roe vs Wade was law. The only difference is – the general public never knew.

  32. wicked

    Lilac,

    I feel the same way you do. My daughters and I were talking about the same thing last night. We’ve discussed it before, so it’s nothing new. I’d have to say that personally I would choose against termination 99.99% of the time. But there’s that .01% of me that understands it depends on the situation. I would only know what I would do if put in a situation where a decision would have to be made, and it wouldn’t be an easy decision.

    It is for others to choose, whether I agree or disagree with their reasons. If it was a friend or family member, I would argue against it, but in the end, it’s the individual’s decision. And it should be.

  33. wicked

    Abortions have been performed for CENTURIES.

  34. Is there a reason anyone should stand in the way of a woman who wants an abortion? I can’t think of any rational reasons.

    • lilacluvr

      Do you think there should be a process in which women consult with the doctor and then be required to wait a few days before the actual procedure being performed?

      Like I said, I am not saying that I nor the government has the right to deny the woman an abortion but does the woman have the right to simply walk in off the street and demand one at that moment?

      • My initial reaction is “why the waiting period?” and I understand you were making the argument that hormones can make a woman’s thinking process different from usual when she is pregnant. I’ve not personally experienced this biological change, but my inclination is to think that pregnancy is not in itself enough to make a woman incompetent to make decisions for herself. I am certainly willing to hear arguments to the contrary. If a woman were pregnant and psychotic, that might be a different matter.

      • wicked

        Isn’t that process there, Lilac? Or is that only in certain states?

        Obviously there are “rules” to follow in the case of a “late-term” abortion.

        Yes, I do think there should be a process. Does that make me semi-conservative? ::grin::

    • I personally can’t think of any, Iggy. But I am prejudiced toward choice. Like you pointed out — even if the woman uses abortion as birth control, is there anyone who could imagine she should be a mother. If she is so shallow, would the thought of carrying a baby and putting it up for adoption enter her ?mind?

      And we must always remember that no matter when you think life begins, for a space of time that potential new human lives off its host, the female. Then after birth is dependent often on that same host, the female.

      Should we at least consider quality of life as we do in end of life decisions?

      • lilacluvr

        As you may remember, my husband and I have worked nursing homes for 30+ years and there are cases of quality of life vs end of life decisions in that setting.

        But many pro-lifers against abortion are also against end of life decisions. Remember the Schiavo case a few years back? That turned a personal, private matter into a political circus. Much like the abortion issue has become INMO.

        Yes, I do believe there are women who definitely should never have children. I just find it sad to think that these women seem to be able to get pregnant easier than other women who would make good mothers and and are going through infertility treatments to get pregnant.

        Is this a case of that old saying – life is not fair?

  35. lilacluvr

    Wicked – I am thankful I was never put into a situation to make that hard decision. But when I think back on my own experiences – my miscarriage happened 5 months after my 2nd baby was born (I got pregnant while on birth control pills – go figure). Anyway, the miscarriage had a total different effect on me than giving birth twice before. It was a totally different experience.

    I found out I was pregnant one week and the next week I had the miscarriage. The week I found out I was pregnant, I was so emotionally upset thinking about what we were going to do with another baby so close to the 2nd baby and with a toddler of 2 1/2yrs old. My mind was not ready for another baby so soon but, yet, the fact remained I was pregnant.

    It took me a week to get used to the idea of being pregnant again and to embrace the prospect of another baby to join our family and when we lost the baby, I was devastated.

    That is what I mean about a woman’s hormones being so unpredictable during pregancy.

    I just hope every woman who contemplates an abortion has really seriously considered what she is doing.

    And from what I heard about Dr. Tiller, he did refuse some to do some abortions and he actually helped to place those babies in loving homes.

    But yet all I hear from the pro-lifers is that Dr. Tiller would kill any baby as long as the $5,000 was paid. And that was just not the case.

  36. lilacluvr

    In actuality, any woman can perform her own abortion. And in my researching of the abortion issue, this was common practice in the days before Roe vs Wade.

    Women were told of certain ingredients to drink or other instruments to use to take care of the ‘problem’. More often than not, these women died from their attempts.

    I always wondered when I read such facts – where were the men that impregnated these women?

    If we are to believe the pro-lifers and life was such an idealic time where all people were heterosexuals and happily married, then why were abortions performed?

  37. lilacluvr

    Iggy – I understand your point of view and I agree that no one has the right to deny a woman an abortion.

    Maybe it’s because I am a woman who has been through childbirth and a miscarriage that I have certain reservations that perhaps you would not share.

    But I’m glad we are able to debate this issue without resulting to the other blog’s mentality of name calling and demonization.

    If a woman is determined to get an abortion, no waiting period will stop her and I think we can both agree on that?

  38. Thanks, Lilac.

    This youtube video provides a window into the mind of a prolife activist. This is Troy Newman – so fair warning given, okay?

    • wicked

      I hope the ghosts of fetuses haunt Troy and his boys.

      Ridiculous? Yes, as ridiculous as they are.

  39. lilacluvr

    Iggy – thanks for the video.

    My first thought was – I wonder how much money did Newman get from his supporters when this video was released?

    When he was talking about that memorial wall for the bricks with babies’ names – I wonder did he sell those and what was the total revenue from that?

    I wonder, if there was not so much money involved in his Operation Rescue ministry, would he be such an avid activist?

    • wicked

      My question is, after reading your post, where did they get the names? I can’t believe all had names, especially those first trimester. No, women don’t do that.

      Shoot, my birthmother didn’t bother to give ME a name nor did she see me after giving birth. She’d rather I didn’t exist, or at least that’s the impression I got from speaking on the phone with her once.

  40. If I am recalling correctly, OR was stripped of their non-profit status within the last few years. I have no idea how much money they bring in. I drive by that clinic on Central at least once per week. I can’t tell from the outside that any kind of “operation” is going on there. Even people who really dislike Newman say he is petty charasmatic.

  41. The term “death”-scort was kind of interesting, too, wasn’t it?

  42. lilacluvr

    Aren’t most con men and alot of preachers described as charasmatic?

    I wonder if these people ever think as to why the Bush Administration never did anything to try to overturn Roe vs Wade? After all, Republicans had total control of White House, Congress and there were 5 male Catholics on the Supreme Court.

    Why wasn’t abortion front and center for the Bush Administration – or maybe they were too busy with their pro-life policies of invading Iraq?

  43. Not saying I agree with it, but I think W’s position was that the country “wasn’t ready” to ban abortion – his declared goal if I am paraphrasing correctly was to help get America prepared for the step of abandoning abortion.

    I think it was on this blog, but maybe elsewhere, that during W’s 8 years in office, no abortion providers were assassinated, but during Obama and Clinton’s terms this was not the case. If that is true, I wonder what it means, if anything?

  44. I think it means those capable of this kind of violence are easily led, and when a Republican is in office they believe the empty promises.

  45. Your last question is a good one! …pro-life policies of invading Iraq… Too bad more people can’t see this truth!

    I firmly believe that if the Republicans don’t have controversial social issues such as abortion and gay marriage to stir the pot (read: get voters to the polls and giving money), they are left with nothing! And that’s why they make no attempts to overturn Roe v Wade.

    • lilacluvr

      You may have a point there. It’s a wedge issue that they know will bring out the fundies in droves.

  46. lilacluvr

    Well, iggy – fnord – wicked – I need to go run a few errands and I didn’t want you to think I got upset and left the blog.

    I appreciated all your points of view that have been discussed this morning.

    In my opinion, this abortion issue will never be resolved until it is taken out of the political scene.

    I would like to see the need for abortions reduced but it will only be through education and understanding – not through the forced arm of the law. But we should still have the procedure available and legal for those needing it.

    And that is why I consider myself pro-choice and not pro-death.

    But try telling that to the Virgin Marine – right?

  47. My mother was adopted. She looked up her birth mother when she was age 18. My mom’s adoptive parents never told her she was adopted, but she was told this fact by the small Oklahoma town’s resident “crazy person”. Interestingly this town “CP” was called “Addie Rattler” – her real name was Addie Rather and she was the birth mother of Dan Rather (who was raised by a biological uncle). She was called “Rattler” because she talked constantly – rarely stopping. I have wondered from the description if she was bipolar.

    • wicked

      What a shock for your mother! All adopted children should be told as early as possible. I’ve always known and don’t even remember being told. No biggie. Someone else we know here is also adopted.

      I found my birthmother in…1983. It took some digging, but wasn’t as hard as I had expected it to be. She just wasn’t interested in knowing about me. Her loss. Luckily her brother and sister-in-law didn’t feel the same. They were very kind, gave me information and pictures. I have 2 half-brothers and a half-sister.

      That’s very interesting about about Ms. Rather/Rattler. (Should it have been Tattler?)

      • PrairiePond was adopted too. I can’t remember whether she ever told us if she looked for or found birth parents. I do remember she has always been proud and happy of her parents and wouldn’t have traded them!

      • wicked

        She looked but hasn’t found, as far as I know, fnord. Depending on a lot of things, it can be almost impossible to get information. Only 5 states have “open” records that are available to adoptees after turning 18. In some cases, records were destroyed in fires and floods, leaving no trace to be followed.

        (And that 5 number could be even smaller than it was the last time I researched.)

      • Bad Biker

        There are ways to find out – in my case, I was born in such a small “town” that I was probably the only male child born there in 19#$.

        Just kidding about the #$ – it was ’52.

        It still took four months to find my birth family.

        But there are many ways to find the truth – public records, newspaper archives, bribery, burglary.

        (No, I don’t advocate breaking the law, but I do know of an adoptee that used that tactic to get information that led to her finding her birthmother.)

      • jammer5

        I’m not too sure I would go looking for “real parents” if I were adopted. But I’m not, so my judgment is probably clouded. It seems to me if birth parents give you away, finding them might cause more problems than it cures. If the real parent(s) looked for the kid, it might be a different story.

        I’m kinda on the fence on this one.

      • wicked

        Males are much less likely to search for birth parents. At least that’s what I’ve read and seen. Birth parents sometimes do search for the child they relinquished. I know the son of a friend/former relative-in-law who was contacted by and met his birthmother a few years ago. His father was also adopted by never wanted to know more. He and I talked about it a few times.

        At one time, I belonged to Wichita Adult Adoptees. Some of the stories were sad, some happier.

        If you’ve never known anyone you resemble (except your offspring) you can’t understand. That’s said in kindness, not judgement. 🙂 There’s also the matter of health information. Back when I was adopted (a year before Biker was born), the only information given was “good health”. I learned from my birth uncle that of 14 siblings, 8 at the time had had “breakdowns”. He is bi-polar. Heart disease also runs in the family. I asked my b-mother about migraines, because they run in families, but she said there were none she knew about. Must have been passed by my b-father, and I have no idea who he is. No one will tell me.

        Lots of reasons. I grew up an only child, so learning I had half brothers and a sister was…well, hard to describe. 🙂

      • It was a pretty traumatic experience for her. Her adopted brother was with her at the time. He became angry and insisted they go home and confront their mother about it. She recalls crying all the way home.

      • I have told Prairie Pond about my mom’s adoption journey and asked her if she had looked up her birth parents. She said she had not and did not want to. I am with Jammer on this one, I think that not looking might be the better strategy. But like him, I have no way to know what that curiosity would be like.

  48. David B

    Newman has amassed a sizeable portfolio of real-estate. He claims to have voluntarily given up tax exempt status, but that was because he was going to stripped of it by the IRS since he was clearly running a for-profit business.

    There is a nasty lawsuit concerning his “stealing’ Terry Randall’s lucrative “Operation Rescue” brand.

    http://www.operationrescue.org/noblog/three-statements-concerning-randall-terrys-unbiblical-lawsuit-against-troy-newman/

  49. Bad Biker

    My birthmother had me aborted when I was 6 1/2 years old. She dumped me on my birthfather, who dumped me on my paternal grandparents who promptly dumped me on Lutheran Social Services.

    BUT! They were all good “Christians.”

    (BTW: LSC refused to return me to my maternal grandmother when I was in foster care……….)

    • wicked

      Just goes to show some shouldn’t have children and the system doesn’t always work. 😦

      • Bad Biker

        As they say “you don’t know the half of it!”

        She dumped my younger brother on his paternal birth family and they pretended that his g’parents were his parents until a cousin let out the “Family Secret.” She had two children with husband #2.

        My birthfather (husband #1) fathered two more children that were also dumped on LSC. His sister did the same. (It was a family tradition!)

        My birthmother, bless her black heart, kept my younger sister, who was repeatedly raped by her third husband. She had three more children by pedophile husband #3.

  50. Well that’s enough to make a person do some searching for peace, acceptance and happiness. The friend I know today overcame a lot and made the most of that rough beginning.

  51. Bad Biker

    “The friend I know today overcame a lot and made the most of that rough beginning.”

    If you are referring to me, my friend, unfortunately, I didn’t. That is why I am heavily medicated to this day.

    People ask me to describe myself – “Intellectually superior – emotionally inferior.”

    My IQ has been measured above 140 – my emotional capabilities at about zero.

    But! It’s all good! I have my friends, my children and grandchildren. I love life, I love my country and I absolutely love my dog, my friends and family.

    I also love a juicy steak, corn on the cob, homemade fries and cold beer, but that’s a different story.

    PS: I love my cats – they made me say that!

  52. Yes, I meant you! And, then you posted and proved me right. Are you as difficult to train as my cats think I am? I am hopeless. They know how royalty should be treated, and I’m not up to the task! 😉

  53. Bad Biker

    “Are you are difficult to train as my cats think I am?”

    Well Hell yes! I do okay with feeding, watering (they share with Rufus) and the kitty box, but I’ll be damned if I am going wake up in the middle of the night to pet them!

    Ginger chases me around from room to room to get petted, but Alice just pounces on me.

    Apparently, I am tooooooooooooooo stooooooooopid to recognize their needs.

    Or is it, their DEMANDS!

    Jeez, all Rufus wants is to be WITH me.

    (BTW: Rufus gets his meds with Alpo canned food, mixed with his dry Purina DC. The cats HEAR me open the bubble wrap on the Benydryl and immediately hop on the counter for “their” gravy. Stinkers.)

  54. Bad Biker

    “Males are much less likely to search for birth parents.”

    That is true, Wicked, I did not search for my b’parents – my youngest daughter did and I merely financed and offered some advise.

    For my forty-fifth birthday, she gave me a copy of my original birth certificate.

    Talk about a SHOCK!

    BTW: WSC is my birth name.

  55. lilacluvr

    My husband was adopted when he was 6 months old from a German orphanage when his adopted father was stationed in the Air Force as a Chaplain in 1954.

    He has his birth certificate and all the legal paperwork. He even has the records of his US naturalization. He has tried to search several times for his birth mother but it is difficult probably due to it being a foreign adoption?

    My husband went for years saying that he did not ever want to know his birth parents but then when he turned 50 yrs old, he began thinking about his life. I think he was curious to see what he might be able to find but then he was afraid to go clanking around in the closet full of skeletons (if you know what I mean).

    His adopted parents always told him they picked him out special from all the other babies at the orphanage. But my husband was adamant about not telling our children until they were older and could understand.

    I think everyone handles it differently. But, I can never fully know what it is really like because I am not adopted. But I can support my husband in whatever he chooses to do in finding his answers to whatever questions he may have.

  56. David B

    Cheer up, it could be worse:

    “The details of my life are quite inconsequential…. Very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low-grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a 15-year-old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize; he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes, he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament… My childhood was typical: summers in Rangoon… luge lessons… In the spring, we’d make meat helmets… When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds — pretty standard, really. At the age of 12, I received my first scribe. At the age of 14, a Zoroastrian named Vilmer ritualistically shaved my testicles — there really is nothing like a shorn scrotum — it’s breathtaking… I suggest you try it.”

    Dr Evil’s life story from Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery

  57. Bad Biker

    “He has tried to search several times for his birth mother but it is difficult probably due to it being a foreign adoption? ”

    I have never dealt with a foreign adoption in my travels as an advocate for adoptees, but I would imagine that it would depend on which country was involved.

    “But I can support my husband in whatever he chooses to do in finding his answers to whatever questions he may have.”

    I can only say this – I discovered that I have 10 Aunts, that were looking for me, three Uncles and nine birth siblings that I found when we found my family, but most importantly we found that my maternal grandfather, who helped raise me until the age of six, was still alive and got to have five more years with him before he passed away at the age of 103. I was born and raised in the front room of his farmhouse and lived there until I was almost six.

    I did not cry when my adopted mother or father died, but I cried like a baby when Grandpa died.

    When I die, my ashes will be scattered at the foot of my grandparents shared grave site, in the Family Cemetery in Kentucky.

    I will be going home.

  58. wicked

    My original bc reads Roberta Louise. My kids think it’s hilarious. I was named by the nuns who kept me up after all the other babies were put to bed, because I was such a good baby. 🙂 And they wonder why I’m a nightowl. 🙂

  59. Bad Biker

    “because I was such a good baby”

    I would ask for a second opinion.

  60. Bad Biker

    When I was about four, my grandma caught me in the kitchen, peeing out through the screen door.

    I haven’t improve much since – but I usually use the toilet.

  61. Yeah, well, you males have it easy in the plumbing category.

  62. Or maybe convenient in any and all situations would be more accurate!

  63. Bad Biker

    “Yeah, well, you males have it easy in the plumbing category.”

    Hell, I have a bladder the size of a grape – I pee here, there and everywhere.

    I know every tree in Wichita.

  64. 6176746f6c6c65

    Apparently, my bladder is larger than average. I am constantly being asked about “how many times….” during the current shift, and get a glare when I say “1” or “none”. BTW, that’s why I keep two urinals by the bed; I’ve filled one to overflow, and had a bit more to contribute more than one overnight here. I know; too much information.

  65. 6176746f6c6c65

    My mother was adopted at birth, and had absolutely no wish to find her birth parents. She did, though, take steps to find any siblings (full or 1/2) a decade ago when she developed some bizarre endocrine problem which is genetic, and affects females almost exclusively. She was able to locate a 1/2 brother and a 1/2 sister, and has met them. Her 1/2 sister was not affected, but her daughter(s) is(are). No one is quite sure about her birth mother, but from family stories, she may well have been.

  66. But you are larger than average so it tends to reason your parts are larger too.