I thought this subject deserved a dedicated thread: What can we individually, and/or as a group, do that would be helpful in responding to the tragedy of Dr. Tiller’s death? As part of the foregoing reflection, I have been thinking about what can I do to better respond to people of conservative ideology. As I posted earlier, Krisof had an editorial in the NY Times which contended listening to opposing views does not change one’s position, in fact it can entrench one’s position. I believe this entrenchment happened to me as a result of posting and reading on the blog thatshallnotbenamed. I don’t want to be the person that I think I chose to be as a result of my BTSNBN (an abbreviation) experience.
One action I am going to take is to write an email to Phillip and share that I think hosting an unmoderated hate fest is not an especially good idea. I think that he and his corporation have a responsibility to not do that.
Also I am going to endeavor to follow one of those mother’s rules that was always difficult for me: “sometimes it is best to say nothing, if you can’t say something pleasant [or at least something non-confrontational].”
In re-reading this plan, it doesn’t seem like very much, but maybe it is better than nothing.
What do you bloggers think?
Iggy Donnelly
PrairiePopulistsAndProgressives.net 
I think I’ve been complicit in keeping a legal choice something of shame because of my silence. I plan to be more clear ALWAYS that if it isn’t their uterus they don’t have any right to make decisions about it! There have been too many times when I remained silent so as not to rock the boat among neighbors, relatives, those I knew disagreed with choice. I will be strong enough to voice my opinion that abortion is a legal medical procedure, and one of the legal choices available to each pregnant woman. I won’t keep it hidden like it’s a dirty secret. It’s time it was aired out, made mainstream and accepted.
I’ve lived long enough to remember when it was a dirty secret that women enjoy sex, when women were submissive to men and not behaving the way “the little woman” should if she wasn’t. We’re still called bitches too often when men are called strong for a like behavior.
The woman making a legal choice has nothing to be ashamed of, but our society still makes them feel ashamed and like they have something horrible to hide. I hope my willingness to be more open will help mainstream abortion as one of the choices each pregnant woman has available.
Personally, I don’t WANT to get along with those people. Get along means going along and I want no part of it. If they want to go along with me we can talk.
But of course that don’t happen.
The only “common ground” I want with the cons is the ground they are buried in and I am standing on.
Only three comments.. we are all spent…
“Anti-abortion activist Randall Terry says his movement should not tone down its rhetoric despite the killing of abortion doctor George Tiller.
Terry says Tiller’s murder by a gunman during church services on Sunday poses a problem for abortion opponents who might feel pressure not to use highly charged language and tactics.
He says the gunman was wrong to kill Tiller, but that abortion opponents bear no responsibility for the action. Terry says Tiller was “a mass murderer and horrifically, he reaped what he sowed.”
If you can’t tell, I’m in a mood to hit back.
Here’s an idea. They think they can force women into parenthood by intimidating or killing those who provide this legal procedure?
Let’s get more people qualified to do it.
Why does it necessarily take a full fledged doctor to do this? Could not other competently trained medical persons be certified in some way?
I think it’s time people understand the concept that words DO have meaning. I think it’s time people like Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Beck, Coulter, et al, are made responsible for their words. When you have an audience of millions, and start calling someone a mass murderer, a Nazi, or a member of the KKK, and someone goes out and kills that person, those people should be held responsible as accomplices.
This is not a first amendment thing, but akin to yelling fire in a crowded theatre. That kind of speech is not protected, and should be stopped and/or prosecuted. These are different times. Communication is instantaneous, and can have a mob mentality effect. That needs to be taken into consideration, and acted upon.
We are all guilty of doing just that on BTSNBN, and is one reason a rarely post there anymore. Because when I do, I drop back into that samo samo, and I don’t like it. It’s pure hatefest gone wild. There is no reasoning left there anymore.
TC,
It seems to me that while such a procedure might be ably performed by non-physicians, state statutes governing the same are uniform, I believe, in their requirement that the one performing such procedure must be a licensed physician. This would require amendment of the statutes, presenting a risk of more restrictive statutes. So long as the requirements of these statutes can pass muster as a proper exercise of the police power of the state in the guise of protecting the health and physical welfare of the woman, the same would likely be upheld in the face of a legal challenge.
To me, it has been an obvious strategy of those opposed to abortion; make it impossible to find a physician to perform the needed procedure through intimidation, etc., and it will no longer matter whether access is a constitutionally protected right. This strategy proves its success as the number of doctors willing to perform abortions continues to decline, with the number who will perform third trimester abortions down to five or less, depending upon which media source one believes.
I do not see increasing supply a realistic goal; not many will be willing to endure that which Dr. Tiller did. It is my thought that it will take two to three more generations to pass before anything resembling rational discussions on this topic might occur, which in itself is a sad comment on the state of things in this arena.
I’ve asked several anti-abortion protesters if they really think there were no abortions performed before Roe vs Wade and, believe it not, some reply that were not any abortions.
These people’s faces are aghast when I tell them that some abortions were done in the hospital by doctors but were simply labeled D&C’s in the medical record.
It is quite obvious the protesters do not even know what a D&C procedure is, let alone how many times this procedure was performed.
Besides, any religious zealot would be okay with abortions being performed in back alleys or out of sight because then they could feel smug and superior in the knowledge that their country is once again pure and sin free. But let’s not tell them the truth that lies behind the curtain – shall we?
Like the blastocysts at fertility clinics which are saved from research so they can be incinerated out back where no one needs to acknowledge their destruction and the hypocrites can feel all warm and fuzzy about the good they’re doing.
Wouldn’t it be common sense to actually know the facts of something before you form your opinion of support or opposition?
My suggestion is to put an ad in the Eagle, with condolences. Sign it with our site name and share the cost. That would be for the family, no politics…
We should keep politics out of or seperate from any sympathy message.
Just an idea.
That would be fine with me. Has anyone from the blog signed the online obituary guest book for Dr. Tiller? Last time I checked, there were 735 entries.
Quite a few names for such a hated man – don’t you think?
I’m still hopefully optimistic this senseless act of violence will be the turning point against groups like Operation Rescue. I saw Randall Terry on the national news tonight still saying that Dr. Tiller was mass murderer. Just let them keep the hate-filled rhetoric going non-stop. I’m wondering if a poll was taken what approval rating Operation Rescue would receive?
This is something that should be included in the “where do we go from here.”
“The U.S. Justice Department should revive a task force that was created in 1998, after the murder of Dr. Barnett Slepian. The task force coordinated information on extremist groups, helped train local police agencies and funded clinic safety measures.
Protecting abortion providers faded as a priority during the Bush administration, and the task force went largely dormant. Barack Obama’s justice department should get the effort back on track.”
http://voices.kansascity.com/node/4743
As far as I’m concerned, Randall Terry and his cohorts are complicit in the murder of Dr. Tiller. I know it was said upthread, but I need to say it for my own peace of mind. What little piece of peace is left.
I only wish we could have heard the remarks of the people speaking at the vigil last night. Even a bull horn would have helped. 😦
fnord,
I understand what you mean about standing up and speaking out. I chickened out on that today on BTSNBN. I typed that I did not agree with a Ms. Dahl, and that it was MY body and MY choice what I did with it. I deleted it. Shame on me.
Iggy,
What I’ve learned on BTSNBN is that I can be repulsed many times a day, I can come close to hatred, I have shed tears at the stupidity of people there, and if I’m in a nasty mood, I’ll type a post but never send. (Not what happened today.) I’ve typed countless missives to one young Marine there, but eventually trashed them. Why? It does no good, only continues the vitriol. I like peace, and I’m not ashamed to say so, even though I’ve been told by my daughters at different times that I need to stop zipping my lip when something bothers. I don’t mean to be stoic, that’s for sure.
The person you are referring to is not healthy by any definition. As the P_____ family psychodrama unfolds, it is not hard to understand why they are, as they are.
Truthfully, I am really tired of that psychdrama; they should go get therapy. But they won’t.
Deep and heavy sighs…
TC,
The darkness you’re feeling isn’t healthy, not physically, not mentally. I, too, feel the anger, but anger should be funneled into something productive, not DEstructive.
It all just makes me tired. And sad. So sad.
Boy so many thoughts on this, first TB one of the reason it is a MD is there is a danger as has been seen in the back alley Abortions. The procedure maybe simple enough to be done by a trained P.A. but when and if it goes wrong it is immediate.
Now the hard point but you asked, at to the topic and question. There had been a valid point in the beginning of the open thread of yesterday on the blogthatshallnobenamed. It was the supporters of Tiller and choice who started the hatred. Sorry but it is true, The Con started expressing shock and sympathy about the killing. Immediately the Liberals expressed outrage at the cons and accusing them of dancing with glee and crying crocodile tears. For some on the pro-life side in deed that was true but when you use a blanket indictment then you cover those that where in fact shocked and sympatric.
Granted that some on that other blog may truly have felt the same feeling as when they heard of the hanging of Saddam. They would see Dr. Tiller in the same light as Saddam but not all there would see the same connection. Nor would they have seen the killing of Dr. Tiller as justified but they too were accused of feeling it was. When you back someone in a corner and give them no out then their own response can be to attack and defend themselves and their cause. How many times have you read something that was directed so generally as “The Libs” and it is so offensive felt though not directed to you there was a need to defend or dispel it?
It is a different matter when the comment is without a doubt as you think it is. Those expressing glee or justification needs to be addressed. But when addressing it directed to that posters without a blanket attack.
I have to get off but have more and promise do not take this as an assault. You all know I tend to be more with you then with the cons. Later
I am back damn I hate working on cars, I do not have the tempt for it! My damn mechanic ran off to Iraq and is stopping good health American boys from looking at porn on the net! LOL yeah he responded to that claim and said that is only what he has to do when not doing something else. I had to work on the bike too not sure if I do it right either. Back to what I was saying.
This was so emotional that it drives one to want to seek out blood in a sense. But we can not in seeking a responsible person scoop up anyone that is not directly responsible, Just because someone claims to be acting in the name of something does not mean they are. Being Southern Baptist I have been around through association with the Fundies. What is scary is that it is not just a public act they really do live by their beliefs. Even worst if you think they are bad in public they are horror able to each other! What keeps them on the straight and narrow is the fear that others will find out. Being call in front of the church without warning is brutal. BUT I have to make this point, not all Christian are in line with the fundies and neither is every fundie. They have actually been shock and remorseful by this but when attacked they will band together. A blanket attack on Christians get many who are actually sympatric to the outrage over the killing.
I like Pond and know who she is addressing over the last two days, but she is also attacking me when she attack Christianity. Again when people are caught in a blanket indictment against their cause and the faith it puts them into the place of having to defend themselves and their beliefs. You are also attacking the people of Tiller’s church who supported him and gave him a home to feel comfortable. They are the truth Christians, not those who use the Lord’s name in vain by excusing their actions by blanketing it with the faith.
When handling the Cons direct it to the one you are taken offense at not the cause or faith they have.
I will explain it this way, Let say tomorrow morning the news breaks that President Obama has been assassinated. And the killer is a card carrying Liberal who in a twisted logic thinks by killing him it will right a wrong. The wrong happens to be one you too see as a wrong that President Obama has committed.
Would you feel guilt for it because you agree with the killer that something is wrong? How would you handle the Cons that will attack and associate you with that assassin?
Now to be honest there maybe no way to be sensible in these debates or more accurately the school yard slap fights that is the blogging world. First off when dealing with Cons you are dealing with people that do not take anything they say as a serious matter. Therefore they will say anything they think will make you mad. People you and I have that problem because we do think it is a serious matter! It’s maddening too!
So what to do? You can ignore what they say and continue a serious discussion that amounts to talking to yourself in a sense. I do that often, lol which is pretty easy for me since I am more or less scroll over material. OKO is about the only one who addresses what I say and then she has a real reading problem with me if you have not noticed. The rest do not know how to respond when someone is trying to be logical and reasoned.
We could just hang here and forget that other blog is there, but like the cons what fun is it when there is no one that is really disagreeing with you. That was so funny when the Liberals left the Cons to discuss the world. “Sure is hot! Yeah it sure is hot! sigh…. I could not believe it when they actually started showing respect to TB not wanting to drive him off! But anyway the opinions and insight here is not lacking.
“OKO is about the only one who addresses what I say”
You are about the only poster (from all sides of the issues) who always compliments her, always starts a response to her with words about what a reasonable and thoughtful and (put in other undeserved compliments) person she is. Of course she responds to you. There aren’t any other posters who can keep a straight face when reading that nonsense. Maybe you’re also the only person she interacts respectfully with. If it takes telling the whoopers you tell her to get her respect most people won’t bother. I know I could never be that dishonest.
ROFL
That’s what I call telling it like it is! You go, fnord!!!
I think I’ll continue to communicate with adults who are capable of disagreeing agreeably without being buttered up. I’m not playing any games to prove I can interact with someone others can’t.
Fnord that was the simple truth when I met her she was exactly that. AS I found you! It was not buttering her up. It is recognizing that she gets so caught up in the mind-less blog that she lowers herself to something even she can not respect if she thinks about it. I was reminding her of it, I do even if the response is hateful appreciate a response that actually addresses what I said. Rather then to simply call me a name or belittles my intelligence. I really have no idea why she goes after you over some of the others who tend to post hateful counter attacks? It certainly is not warranted or deserved on your part as a fact it is often not warranted by other either.
It kind of funny to me, when I first spoke with you and when I first spoke with her both of you said something that was very similar. You came to the blog to discuss and express you views and learn.
Only to be shocked and troubled by the level of mindless hatred and unreasonable posters.
Yeah I could relate it shocked me too and it has only gotten worst since I first came there… is it my deodorant?
It does kind of goes back to what I had said, when placed where one has to defend their beliefs than attack in self defense. Be it in partisanship, religious faith or sexual preferences. I tend to speak what I find or believe Maybe that why I fail the Cons test and I am so disappointed that I can not be in such a club!
Feels like I got kicked out of a Munich beer hall in 1933!
I learned something shortly after going to work in the jail. There is not such thing as black or white when it comes to inmates or people. Most everyone is a shade of gray, having both demons and angels within them.