It’s not Al Qaeda that scares me

It’s another week of bits and pieces. Although really, as I write this, my heart is singing the Stone’s “Shattered” more so than Joan Jett’s “Bits and Pieces”.

My heart is splintered into millions of pieces contemplating the cold blooded, religiously motivated murder of Dr. George Tiller. The American Taliban has won another round of domestic terrorism. Like it or not, Tiller was performing legal, and constitutionally protected medical procedures when a religious wacko assassinated him. And it was an assassination meant to intimidate other doctors performing other legal, constitutionally protected procedures. That’s terrorism, no matter how you slice it up.

Don’t like the laws? Think they are immoral, unconstitutional? Fine. In America, we have a process to change the laws. And despite winning the presidential elections 5 of the last 8 times, and conservative republicans being in control of Congress from 1994 until 2007, and republican presidents appointing the majority of the US Supreme Court, conservatives have not been able to change the laws that make abortion legal, or overturn Roe v Wade.

So what’s the next step for this lawless bunch? Assassination. Tiller is the FOURTH doctor gunned down by a religious bigot since 1993. I guess for those folks, imposing THEIR will is more important than the rule of law. Could someone tell me why these people hate the US constitution?

I’d also like to ask a question of the bigots that aided, encouraged, and supported these political assassins and terrorists over the last 16 years. My question is, how does it feel to successfully become identical to Al Qaeda? Brothers in blood and terrorism. The American Taliban “don’t need no stinkin’ laws”. They have guns and a network of domestic terrorists to support them. Welcome to the land of the “free”, the home of the brave, and the rule of domestic terrorism over law.

Chris Rock, a comedian I am sure is not popular in Bleeding Kansas, said one time that as a black man, he wasn’t nearly as afraid of Al Qaeda as he was of Al Cracker. Meaning that redneck, gun totin’ religious bigots were far more likely to be a danger to his safety than any foreigners. I’m quite sure Matthew Shepard would agree. So would James Byrd. And so do I, having had experience with the WaKeeney Taliban. So chalk up another violent win bigots. The real threat to the safety and welfare of many Americans is not coming from foreign soil. When it comes to pure terrorism, nothing stops these religious zealots determined to force their will on everyone, laws and courts be damned.

And could someone remind me when the last time a “liberal” shot up a church or assassinated someone with whom they disagreed? Yeah. I don’t know of any incident of that either. Why are those behind the guns always conservatives? The guy who shot up the church in Tennessee said he wanted to kill every Democrat in Congress. But instead, he bloodied up a church that was a reconciled congregation and accepted openly gay members and their families. That was such a crime to this bigot, spurred on by Bernard Goldberg’s book “100 People Screwing Up America” that he entered the church and killed in cold blood. And before you bring your pitchforks and torches after me, those were the killer’s words, not mine. HE said he wanted to kill every Democrat in Congress, and everyone listed in Goldberg’s book.

I don’t think you have to think too hard to understand the truth as stated in this bumper sticker: “Jesus, save me from your followers”.

Those of us who believe in religious freedom and the rule of law must not allow domestic terrorists like Scott Roeder, Operation Rescue, and the Army of God to win by murder. To do so would dishonor every American soldier who ever went into battle to defend the constitution, religious freedom, and the rule of law. People gave their lives to protect the constitution and the laws it guides. Allowing domestic terrorists to win is a slap in the face to anyone who loves democracy. Without laws, and respect for them, even when you disagree, America is no better than Afghanistan.

Anyone looking to quote scripture during this sad and blood soaked period of American history should look no further than the shortest verse in the Bible.

”Jesus wept.”

And so should we all.

prairiepond

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66 Comments

Filed under abortion, Crimes, Diversity, hate groups

66 responses to “It’s not Al Qaeda that scares me

  1. prairiepond

    Hi guys. Sorry about the “post without warning” but I thought perhaps you all would like to see my column in the local paper this week. I’m sure it’s gonna draw the local wingnuts my way, but dammit, I have a bully pulpit with this column and I’m going to use it.

    My boss’s wife, a big time wingnut, and I had a shouting match in the newsroom yesterday. I dont know how much longer I’ll be working there. I really need the money, but I cant be working in a place and making money for people who are likely donating a portion of that money to support folks who hate me and mine.

    So, that’s the story. I’m sorry if my column offends anyone, but it’s the truth as I see it. And that’s the essence of editorial writing.

    Thanks for listening–Prairie Pond

  2. Pond, my heart goes out to you, to all peaceful people who face hate for simply being who they are.

    Will your column be published in the local paper? It has a stage here, it should have a larger stage! It has a message that Americans must heed. Problem I see is that those who need the message most still feel justified in their hate.

  3. jammer5

    People hate hearing the truth about themselves, truth being the most powerful force in the universe and all. The religious right isn’t so religious after all, when one looks deep into the hate they spew as regular sermonizing.

    “The lives of innocent babies scheduled to be murdered by George Tiller are spared by the action of American hero Scott Roeder.
    George Tiller the Babykiller reaped what he sowed and is now in eternal hell.”

    From the army of God website.

    Apparently, these “Christians” have a direct line to God, as they seem to know where He plans on sending Tiller. That is arrogance, pure and simple. For those of us who do believe in God, it is understood no man can know the mind of God.

    The army of God is nothing more than a terrorist organization, and, in my opinion, should be tried as accomplices, along with O’Rielly, in the murder of Tiller.

    Morning, Prairie Pond. You said it much better than I, but I felt the need to rant a bit.

  4. prairiepond

    Thanks fnord. This has affected me on a deeply personal level. Yes, they are publishing my column this week, and I do give the editors credit for doing that, knowing it’s gonna create a siht storm. But the editor’s wife also ripped me in her column, and like I said, it was pretty tense in the newsroom this week.

    These editors have been my very dear friends for 35 years. Through thick and thin. They supported me in my public torment five years ago. They wrote editorials supporting me and my board until the very bitter end.

    But I gotta say, I’m starting to see it as my personal responsibility to not contribute my labor to people who contribute to groups that conspire to murder. I’m not sure in good conscience that I can work there anymore.

    I dont know. I wont be quitting soon, because I dont want the wingnut chorus that will come today to think they ran me off the paper. They wont.

    But I may leave as a matter of conscience.

  5. prairiepond

    Thanks Jammer. I love you too, Dude!

  6. prairiepond

    Hey, I have to leave for town now, so I wont be back until tonight. I forgot to put tags on this and I wonder if one of you smart folks :) could fix it so I dont get an email response everytime someone posts a comment?

    Thanks. I love you all dearly.

  7. Pond,

    I put tags on your post, and will read the ever-handy WordPress for Dummies to see if turning off that email is even possible. I feel even dumber when I go to the dummies book. How can an accumulation of pages be soooo intimidating?

  8. wicked

    PP, thanks for expressing many of things I’ve been feeling and just as many of the thoughts I’ve been thinking.

    The Right doesn’t want us making anything more of this than a simple nutcase going, well, nuts and shooting someone. Well, surprise, surprise, it IS something more than that, which is why the Right is so desperate to backpedal and offer hypocritical statements to the press. They’re scared. They know this latest heinous action is making them all look bad…because they ARE bad. They know it, we know it, and yet nothing is done to stop it. Have they covered their tracks well enough to distance themselves? Maybe this time, but their luck is bound to run out soon. People–thinking people–are opening their eyes and getting wise.

    I pray (to whomever or whatever will listen) that someday, before I die, I’ll get to see peace in this country and maybe in this world. That someday the hate will be gone. But we’re running out of time. I fear that we–mankind–will destroy ourselves before that happens.

  9. Yes, PrairiePond thanks for this excellent post. You say, quite well, what many of us have been thinking.

  10. If I could have a rational conversation with a person who has decided my reproductive organs are their business and learn why they think that, maybe I could gain understanding. But rational conversations don’t seem possible. Doesn’t it all come back to the question of when life begins, and will there ever be an agreement on that? Probably not.

    Will I ever be able to help someone who disagrees with my right to choose see that what has the potential to become a human being cannot do so without my host body? And that I have the right to make decisions about my body, my health — both physical and mental.

    As Iggy pointed out so well yesterday — if a woman wants an abortion and is prevented from getting one, how can that be good for anybody, especially that potential human being who depends on her in order to become a human being?

    We also know that people with money have always gotten abortions in settings of greater safety — the D&C at the hospital… It’s the poorest, those with the fewest resources who went to the back alley and often paid a higher price than can be measured in dollars. We also know abortions have happened through the ages and would continue if abortion was once again made illegal. Will those facts ever be faced by the ones who fight to have Roe v Wade overturned?

    • lilacluvr

      And why can’t these same people see that their beloved Republicans in power for many years have done nothing to further their cause?

      Why are they not angry with their politicians that use abortion as a wedge issue?

      It it because these people cannot see beyond the end of their nose or do they not want to face the truth of being duped?

      I think we all agreed yesterday that our goal should be to reduce the need for abortion. And that will only come from supporting true pro-life policies – education, health care, employment, treating every American with dignity and respect and get off this kick about the traditional marriage/family. Families come in all shapes, sizes and colors and all families should be encouraged.

      A basic human need is to be loved. After all, isn’t that what God is supposed to be – love?

  11. lilacluvr

    Prairiepond – hang in there and know you have friends and support.

    The problem with dealing with these Christian zealots is that they are convinced they are doing God’s work. And if you dare to question them, then THEIR God will send you to Hell. So, in their mind, they are ‘saved’.

    Well, my God is a loving God (as is their God if they would read the Bible they profess to love so much).

    Hate is a cancer that kills everything it touches. At some point, this same hate these Christian zealouts spew will start to eat at the source – themselves.

    Before Tiller’s assassination in his church, I really think alot of the Amerian people have become numb to the abortion issue – choosing to not take sides.

    This senseless act of violence in Tiller’s church has shown how one group of haters that has been harrassing a man for years can infiltrate a person’s life and snuff it out in a moment.

    I think there will be a backlash against these anti-abortion groups. But they, like the Republicans, don’t know when to shut up and will continue to turn people off from their message.

    This hate speech seemed to have started with Rush Limbaugh and Newt and his Contract ON America in 1994. It has been building ever since and at some point, it has to come to an end.

  12. tosmarttobegop

    Yes Pond you express many things that trouble me and give my good on ya! To the editors of the paper, my home town paper actually fired a reporter for simply mentioning some brats at a local event. The little town I was a cop in had zero crimes according to the paper because they never reported the crimes that happened there.

    The media even this morning is not helping or acting responsible in reporting. Every news item makes a point of describing Dr, Tiller by “ the controversial late term abortion Doctor” as if those who cheered his death needed reminded and those who where shocked and sorrowed by his death needed his life noted by this one title.

    One of the extreme anti-abortion sites actually said the a assassinate of the President is warranted and called for! They cloak themselves in free speech and religious freedom which like Phelps makes it a touchy subject to go after. The site that called for the death of Obama will find the Secret service over them like flies over a road kill. But what about their calls for the death of abortion providers? For the hero worship they give the amoral killers and bombers?

    The final straw for me yesterday was the PETA billboards! A man was cold bloody killed and it is becoming the cause of the day! It is not some opportunity to farther causes of every loose cause!
    The Pro-lifers long ago went from caring about each and every fetus to stand on each and every bloody fetus to farther their political cause. The Religious Right see the issue as nothing more that a cause to farther their religious agenda and forgets the religion and the God they are claiming to believe in.

    So many are not seeing either Dr. Tiller or the unborn as human beings they see them as points and counter point in a frecking debate! It is no different then when the Nazis would saw off a Jew’s arm to see how long it will take for someone to bleed to death. They are not seeing the women who might have died or had to make a decision that may haunt them for their lives. The human life factor is taken out as if none of it is about a human life. Tiller is not human, the fetus is not human, the pregnant woman is not human.
    The only thing that is human is the issue to fight over!

  13. Well said pond.
    I do believe my Jesus and yours are the same.
    I haven’t had the chance to hear about the Wakeeney Taliban.

  14. tosmarttobegop

    So more that is in line, also the issue of Gay marriage where the issue forgets that human life is involved!
    OH marriage is so wonderful, committing one to the other is so wonderful. I strongly believe in marriage and it the right thing to do! EXCEPT when it is about two people that are of the same sex then marriage is bad and distasteful! You can not inject your own feelings on Gays because that means they are Human beings too!

    Why oh why is it that the issue and the meaning to human beings in order to take a stand one way or another means that those who the issue effects. means they are not human? That did not come out the way I was thinking but its kind of hard to put the outrage and emotion behind it into words.

  15. QnofHrts

    PP,
    As usual you amaze me with your writing skills. Beautifully written.
    I weep with you.

  16. Bad Biker

    One, Grrl, don’t let the bastards get you down – ever. I realize that it is easy for me to say, sitting behind a keyboard – white (mostly) male, straight and all, but keep after it – make them fire you if necessary but don’t give in.

    There are many, many people behind you that love and care about you. Please keep that in mind. As Fnord noted, we stand ready to hit the road to help you out.

    Hell, we NEED a road trip.

    Two, the death of Dr. Tiller has me, among many others, horribly upset. I feel that there are genuine pro-lifers out there, that for whatever reason are sincere in their beliefs, but are just as horrified by this assassination as any pro-choice individual.

    Our president called for both sides to avoid turning the other into caricature. In the dark days after the murder of a good man, right here in our town, we should all heed the words of President Obama.

    I have largely avoided the nameless blog because of the rabid right wing, simply because I do not want to sink to their level. I have in the past and have regretted my occasional juvenile behavior.

    Collectively, we are better than those RR/Con folks that populate that blog.

    Most of us remember the disgusting, graphic posts by an Irregular blogger, describing Dr. Tiller as akin to Hitler and describing his clinic as a later day Auschwitz.

    We are better than that.

  17. jammer5

    The current book I’m reading on water is so fascinating, I’m tempted to do a chapter by chapter review of the material. For instance, are you aware it takes from 250 to 600 gallons of water to grow one pound of rice? Or that once glorious river, the Rio Grande, is nothing more than a dry river bed growing drought tolerant bushes and trees?

    Let me know what you think, and I’ll work with Iggy on creating a file for it.

  18. I would like that very much! May still have to borrow the book after you’ve finished, but my reading list is loooong. I have three books going right now and there are two waiting to be started. I used to be able to read for at least an hour or two each night and reading relaxed me for sleep — now it just puts me to sleep! I’m getting to be like a man and can fall asleep before my head ever hits the pillow!

  19. djr4488

    I would hope that I with a differing opinion am considered one who can have a rational conversation. :( But, from me you will get no argument that there are many who can not have a rational conversation about hot button issues on both sides. Pro-life persons killing men for performing abortion, to PETA killing men for finding cures to diseases using animals.

    Abortion is a different issue for me, as I view the unborn as being a distinct human being and thus protected by the constitution as having the right to life. However, it is just as wrong to take another mans life to try to stop it.

    In regard to abortion, there should be exceptions(and I think I made that point in a strange way here already, by saying that I’m really only against it as a means of birth control): medical is one of those reasons. I think the woman should have the right to save her life if the pregnancy threatens her life.

    Further, I think more people would stand to benefit if they took the time to help women who find themselves in a situation it is felt they need an abortion. I try, but I am only one person and I find ridicule from people on both sides of the issue for the view that I hold(generally just the extremists).

    PP, I had a conversation on a different blog with you but not that one blog, but one that was ran by a person here. As I recall the conversation, I stated I find the act morally wrong, but that it caused no harm and thus I support your right to a civil union or marriage. It matters not to me what it is called I seem them meaning the same thing. I believe I went further, the only issue that I could possibly have is if a religion finds it morally wrong that religion and/or church pastor should not be required to marry a gay couple. I’d ask, as another person posted here, don’t give up you have this persons support.

  20. Thanks, djr4488, for your comment.

    iggy donnelly

  21. It’s hard for me to think of you as this new nic! I still see ___ in my head. ;-) I know we all kinda feel that about all our nics — Iggy said he types Linda then changes it.

    Although I don’t understand, I do respect your opinion. I know you also see reality. I have the knowledge that you work with pregnant women, that you value life at every stage including after it’s born. If we had many more who concentrate their efforts on helping rather than opposing we would perhaps be further along.

    So you would need to feel / believe (I don’t know what the correct or best word would be) life begins at conception, correct? I understand and accept that.

    I see the cells that begin at conception as potential life — if all goes well those cells can become life.

    Therein, I think, begins our differing opinions.

    But what we don’t disagree on at all is that we won’t ever eliminate unwanted pregnancies so our efforts should be in helping those who are in that situation.

    Yes, we can have a rational conversation! A beginning. ;-)

  22. djr4488

    Fnord,

    You are correct. I view life as starting from conception and should be as well protected as possible from then to natural death.

    I view life a little differently as being in differing stages of development(I’d suppose in a sense we might all agree this may be true). So for me, life is life the moment development starts.

    Now I’ve done some thinking, and came up with a rather interesting opinion, perhaps a different post would be the place to share the idea, if you feel so you may move it copy it, claim it is yours, etc. It’s all good to me. So here is what I was thinking:

    Why are there extremists? It is my thought that extremism occurs due to a need to better ourselves such that the need becomes obsessive. An example could be, perhaps it is that person a strongly believes that their position is correct that there is no possible alternative at all, and now a polar opposite comes along(as far as the view is concerned) and now there is unavoidable tension.

    We have an innate need to compete as well, I think this can be seen all throughout history, from men fighting other men for the ‘right to mate’ and pro-create to (using an example from modern times) touch my code I break your fingers. ;) Perhaps this “compete”could be described as a need to protect the “self” or the “group.” Again, when polar opposites come into contact, it is necessarily going to cause tension(unfortunately).

    Thankfully, there are people who are more “centrist”, their minds may not be changed on a particular subject. However, they aren’t going to go around feeling the urge to name call, or kill each other, or threaten each other, etc. This group of people can hold a rational conversation, and can agree that while they may never agree on a particular issue, they can at least walk away understanding the other persons point of view. I myself, would be left-leaning on some issues and right-leaning on other issues. I don’t judge a person based on a view that person holds, whether I agree with that view or not.

    Personally, I like the idea that I can share my opinion with that person and that person is can share their opinion with me. Why should it be any other way? I think it boils down to what I said above, we have a need to be “better” and a desire to “compete.” As a result, we find flame wars, threats, and extremism because some people don’t know when something is taken “too far.”

  23. I call that attitude of the person who doesn’t recognize something is taken “too far,” the need to always have a winner and a loser. Goes to your great explanation of our competitiveness. We have to stop and think to know every situation doesn’t require winning and losing as badly as it deserves compromise.

    On the BTSNBN a poster who is a lady scientist in Hawaii made a post I wonder if you would be willing to think about? Of course no one over there answered her question (surprise!). Here’s what she posted:

    “Let’s give all unborn babies the same rights as everyone else.

    I’m all for this.

    I don’t have a right to demand that you use your body to sustain my life.

    You are a bone marrow match and I need a transplant? I don’t have a right to demand that marrow from you, even though I will almost certainly die without it (google the chances of finding a bone marrow match outside of your immediate family).

    My kidneys are failing and I need to be hooked up to you, otherwise I will die? I don’t have the right to demand that you hook up to me to sustain my life.

    Let’s give all unborn babies the same rights as everyone else. Not more, not less.

    Abortion would still be legal.”

    She expands by saying:

    “I’m trying to change hearts with logical discussion. But logic doesn’t move people on an issue like this. Hence the appeal to consider “my own flesh and blood” and other appeals to emotion.

    Maybe it should.

    When you give a class of people special rights that no one else has, then someone will have their rights trumped.

    Pro-lifers want to give the unborn more rights than everyone and give pregnant women less rights than anyone else.

    I don’t agree that this is allowed by our Constitution.

    That doesn’t make abortion moral, just legal. As it should be.”

    I DO NOT intend to make this a conspiracy theory of — if we allow this legality it means this and this will happen! Kinda like if we allow gays to marry next it will be threesomes, and someone can marry an animal… None of us are stupid and therefore it isn’t necessary to behave like those who cannot hold rational conversations! But I do wonder if she isn’t correct in saying if we force a woman to gestate aren’t we giving greater protections under our constitutional laws to the unborn?

  24. “Thankfully, there are people who are more “centrist”, their minds may not be changed on a particular subject…”

    That’s what we have here at Prairie P&Ps! Isn’t it refreshing!? Yes, you’re right, we may not change our opinions, but we will listen and when we choose our position we’ll be well-informed on the issues.

  25. lilacluvr

    What bothered me the most about the Conservative Republicans that swooped into power in 1994 was the fact they refused to compromise. Much of today’s polarization came from that time period – in my opinion.

    Governing is all about compromise. When one group holds all the power – then is it really a democracy?

    I can respect anyone’s view that they do not want to compromise their core principle about abortion but can’t we all find common ground in the desire to reduce the number of abortions being performed?

    To me, this whole abortion debate for the last 20 years has been misdirected – it should be about supporting pro-life policies and supporting our fellow Americans.

    As a side note, I always wondered about the Catholic Church’s role in the anti-abortion debate. I know they profess to be pro-life but we all know about the sanctity of the confessional. So what is the difference between a priest hearing someone’s confession to a murder and keeping that quiet or Dr. Tiller performing a legal abortion? The end result in both cases would be death but the Catholic Church sees nothing wrong with the priest withholding information for justice to be served in the matter of his parishioner confessing to the murder? And with all their fervor, they protest at Tiller’s clinic?

    I am not Catholic, so maybe I am not able to see it the same way they do? Please, if you’re Catholic and are offended by my question, I don’t mean it that way. I am just really trying to understand where these people are coming from.

  26. djr4488

    Fnord,

    This brings up an interesting point. I don’t read on the other board except for very rare circumstances. I would suppose in a way, one could view it that way, but I wonder though if unfettered access to abortion then takes away a right to live from that same unborn.

    So perhaps the answer is, no matter the outcome(abortion being legal or illegal) some human being(the mother or the unborn) is going to have less rights. Thus is it possible to be doomed to a never ending a battle of rights?

    I’d think the answer is no, there must be a common ground, I think that the constitution demands life trumps all other rights(it is listed first), so perhaps it should be demanded in one of the examples provided that if I match her bone marrow that I must be willing to donate mine to help save her life.

    Perhaps a larger issue then, is there a such thing as actual individual rights, in cases where it seemingly means one group of individuals would get more rights than another group of individuals? Wow did that open up a fun topic to think about or what for me.

    Thanks for sharing that, I do actually appreciate it.

  27. djr4488

    Lilacluvr,

    I am Catholic, I find no offense to your question and any Catholic who does perhaps doesn’t really understand their faith. Perhaps, I can offer my view of this:

    The Catholic Priest can not is not supposed to violate the confessional as it is between the person confessing and God, with the priest as a mediator between man and God. Also, a condition to that confession is the the said murderer would have to turn him or herself in else the murderer is not truly forgiven.

    I find no offense to anyone who asks questions about or questions my faith. It is why my arguments are kept secular in nature. Not every person believes as I do, yet I completely believe in the tenants of the faith and its dogma.

  28. I found a blog that has so much to tell about the abortion issue. I’ve barely begun reading the 302 responses. There are stories there that should be mandatory reading just so we can gain the understanding necessary to discuss the issue of abortion. I haven’t had time (I just found it!) to really explore this blog titled shapely prose, but I gather it’s written by women and for women. I plan to spend some time there and I think I will gain much from reading there. I might even get brave enough to leave a comment (probably not, I have nothing that could be said as well as many have said it there).

    Here’s just one story worth reading:

    “My pregnancy almost killed me. A doctor actually advised me to abort in the first trimester, but I chose not to because I wanted to be a mother so much that I felt like it was worth risking my life. It wasn’t until the first week of my third trimester that we discovered that my baby had a chromosomal disorder that caused his internal organs to develop in such a way that he was certain to die shortly after birth (he had no lungs.) So not only was I in and out of the hospital with hyperemesis and seizures, it was for a child whose life could only be short and painful.

    It was horrifying and heartbreaking, and it was made even more so by the fact that while there was a safe medical procedure that would give my baby a painless death and save my life, that procedure was illegal in my home state and not covered by insurance. By law, I had to continue the pregnancy regardless of the risk to my life. I briefly considered suicide as the only compassionate option for my baby.

    Fortunately we were able to tap out the credit cards and fly to a place where a kind, brave and compassionate doctor was able to do what had to be done. He worked in an office surrounded by bulletproof glass and guards. He wore a bulletproof vest to work every day. He wasn’t Dr. Tiller, but he could have been – Tiller was my second choice if I hadn’t been able to get an appointment with this guy.

    I am sick with grief over what happened to Dr. Tiller this morning. There are no words for that kind of evil or for the heartlessness reflected in the “baby-killer” kinds of comments. It is simpleminded ignorance and cruelty. Pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous, and the process doesn’t always go like a Hallmark card. Doctors like Tiller are necessary when things go wrong.

    And yet, I’m a coward. I donate to NARAL and march in abortion-rights rallies, but I rarely talk about my experience. First, because it is so painful and personal, but also because crazy people scare me, and the kind of people that think Dr. Tiller deserved to be shot no doubt also think I deserve to die for what I did. So I’m being anonymous when writing about this on a high-traffic site. I’m sorry about that, because I wonder if those of us who are part of that particular awful club could make a difference by being more vocal. But I’m just not that brave.”

  29. wicked

    fnord, thank you for sharing that. I’ll go read some of the stories there later. I’m sure there’ll be tears.

    For others who aren’t aware of some of the other reasons for abortions, here’s one that friends and I were talking about the other night.

    Anencephaly is a cephalic disorder that results from a neural tube defect that occurs when the cephalic (head) end of the neural tube fails to close, usually between the 23rd and 26th day of pregnancy, resulting in the absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp. Children with this disorder are born without a forebrain, the largest part of the brain consisting mainly of the cerebral hemispheres (which include the isocortex, which is responsible for higher level cognition, i.e., thinking). The remaining brain tissue is often exposed – not covered by bone or skin.
    Presentation
    The National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS) describes the presentation of this condition as follows:

    A baby born with anencephaly is usually blind, deaf, unconscious, and unable to feel pain. Although some individuals with anencephaly may be born with a main brain stem, the lack of a functioning cerebrum permanently rules out the possibility of ever gaining consciousness. Reflex actions such as breathing and responses to sound or touch may occur.
    Diagnosis
    Anencephaly can often be diagnosed before birth through an ultrasound examination. The maternal serum alpha-fetoprotein (AFP screening) and detailed fetal ultrasound can be useful for screening for neural tube defects such as spina bifida or anencephaly.
    Prognosis
    There is no cure or standard treatment for anencephaly and the prognosis for affected individuals is poor. Most anencephalic babies do not survive birth, accounting for 55% of non-aborted cases. If the infant is not stillborn, then he or she will usually die within a few hours or days after birth from cardiorespiratory arrest.

    In almost all cases anencephalic infants are not aggressively resuscitated since there is no chance of the infant ever achieving a conscious existence. Instead, the usual clinical practice is to offer hydration, nutrition and comfort measures and to “let nature take its course”. Artificial ventilation, surgery (to fix any co-existing congenital defects), and drug therapy (such as antibiotics) are usually regarded as futile efforts. Clinicians and medical ethicists may view the provision of nutrition and hydration as medically futile. Occasionally some may even go one step further to argue that euthanasia is morally and clinically appropriate in such cases.

    Rate of occurrence
    In the United States, approximately 1,000 to 2,000 babies are born with anencephaly each year. Research has suggested that overall, female babies are more likely to be affected by the disorder.
    Causes
    The cause of anencephaly is disputed. Neural tube defects do not follow direct patterns of heredity, though there is some indirect evidence of inheritance, and recent animal models indicating a possible association with deficiencies of the transcription factor TEAD2. Studies show that a woman who has had one child with a neural tube defect such as anencephaly, has about a 3% risk to have another child with a neural tube defect.
    It is known that women taking certain medication for epilepsy and women with insulin dependent diabetes have a higher chance of having a child with a neural tube defect. Genetic counseling is usually offered to women at a higher risk of having a child with a neural tube defect to discuss available testing.

    Recent studies have shown that the addition of folic acid to the diet of women of child-bearing age may significantly reduce, although not eliminate, the incidence of neural tube defects. Therefore, it is recommended that all women of child-bearing age consume 0.4 mg of folic acid daily, especially those attempting to conceive or who may possibly conceive, as this can reduce the risk to 0.03%. It is not advisable to wait until pregnancy has begun, since by the time a woman knows she is pregnant, the critical time for the formation of a neural tube defect has usually already passed. A physician may prescribe even higher dosages of folic acid (4 mg/day) for women who have had a previous pregnancy with a neural tube defect.

    Anencephaly and other physical and mental deformities have also been blamed on a high exposure to such toxins as lead, chromium, mercury, and nickel.

    There’s a little more, but I think that’s enough to understand.

    http://www.reference.com/search?q=Anencephalic

  30. The POS Roeder talked from jail today –

    “Scott Roeder, suspect in death of George Tiller, talks from jail

    WICHITA – The man charged in the slaying of late-term abortion provider George Tiller says he’s “being treated as a criminal” even though he hasn’t been convicted of anything.

    Scott Roeder called the Associated Press on Thursday from the Sedgwick County Jail and disputed characterizations in the news media of him as being anti-government, saying he is “anti-corrupt government.”

    “I haven’t been convicted of anything and I am being treated as a criminal,” he said in a telephone conversation that lasted about three minutes. When asked by the AP to discuss the Tiller shooting, Roeder, 51, Merriam, Kan., refused to comment, saying he would talk about that later. Roeder is charged with first-degree murder for allegedly killing Tiller with a single gunshot as the doctor handed out programs Sunday while ushering at the Lutheran church he attended. Roeder also is accused of assaulting two witnesses before leaving the church and driving away. Roeder was arrested a few hours later, near Gardner, about 170 miles northeast of Wichita. Roeder said he has made it through the first several days of his incarceration, but is concerned about the media attention his family, particularly his elderly mother, has been getting. “I appreciate your prayers,” he said.”

    • wicked

      My prayer for him is that he gets exactly what he’s due.

      I’d cry some crocodile tears for him, but I’m fresh out today.

  31. wicked

    My friend’s husband is a retired neurosurgeon. During his time as a doctor, he saw many things the rest of us hope never to see. One of those were gunshot wounds to young people brought into the ER. He was on call many times to try to save those lives. The wounds were usually gang related, but sometimes from gun accidents. He won’t own a gun.

    Another thing he saw often were women who were brought in after a botched abortion, either self-inflicted or done “back alley”. He’s pro-choice because he understands that abortion must be legal. Restrictions are fine and needed, but making it illegal will help no one and mean more dead women who shouldn’t have died.

    On another note, my friend’s husband has Parkinsons. He’s had the best medical treatment available, and still my friend has to watch this man slowly die. I also learned that one of my dearest friends in high school, who was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers several years ago, has gotten worse. She also has Parkinsons.

    Eight years of nothing on helping these people, mainly because some believe the cells needed should be thrown away instead of used in research.

    It’s been a lousy, lousy couple of weeks.

  32. Couple of interesting developments today- apparently Scott Roeder has made several trips to Wichita in the past month or so to case the church. He acquired a gun and ammunition, paid for gas, meals etc. and all this on almost no income.

    Further, he’s asked for bail while the paperwork shows that he has only a 16 yr-old Taurus and $10 to his name. Put it all together and it makes one wonder how he financed this assassination, and who’s putting up bond?

    It appears that this wasn’t the work of a lone, deranged nutcase. There was serious planning and money behind it, and that involves other people who need to be identified and charged.

  33. The question asked often at the blog shapely prose:

    “Do you trust women to make decisions for themselves (and, where applicable their families)?”

  34. Well, I read further down the long list of comments at shapely prose and what do I find? Iggy. Our Iggy commenting among all those females. He’s brave! ;-)

  35. I just got to you. Came back here to say you’re there too. You beat me to it.

    Now I have to go back and see if they handed you your ___ like they did Iggy. Iggy thought what he was saying was true and helpful, but these gals knew better! If you’re down to three doctors, one is murdered, another leaves his Nebraska practice to come to Wichita on some days you don’t get back to three doctors, you just have one of them traveling between two locations.

    Well I see where Sweet Machine says men do post. I’ve only read this thread, none others, and so far I’ve seen two people I know are men comment on this thread. Of course, several more could be men and I would have no way of knowing. Well, you got yours too! No bashing of any body types!

    I’m reading. I’m not posting! I’m learning and have nothing to add that I would be able to say as well as someone already said it.

    I would love to see this bunch go up against a bunch of male chauvinist pigs — they’ve got this attempt to control women figured out really well! They are the most confident bunch of women I’ve ever read!

    If a bunch of men imagine they are going to overturn Roe v Wade, they should go read this thread. I don’t think women are going back to the dark ages!

    • Okay, I honestly did not read most of the thread.
      I just kinda commented on the side.
      No way I’m going in the room too deep with all those angry ladies!

      • djr4488

        Sekan and Iggy, the two of you gentlemen or more brave than I. I don’t post about my thoughts except when someone has made me feel comfortable around them.

        I hope this is taken as a compliment to this group of individuals.

  36. djr4488

    Fnord and wicked,

    More reading material for me. I think we agree that abortion should be kept legal then for medical reasons(I don’t think I’ve ever said otherwise, but I’ll stand corrected if shown I have). I think we disagree if their should be restrictions on abortion.

    I went and read last about what the two of you had provided(I don’t yet have a comment about wicked’s post because the site fnord provided was intriguing to me so I spent much time there). Interesting, that while reading I could feel emotions ranging all over the place there. From what seemed like “hatred” toward those who call themselves pro-life and those who feign(I think that is the correct word) a pro-life cause then to what seemed like those who empathized with those who are maybe more pro-life than others.

    It is also interesting to note there, the stories some of had to share. Again, an interesting range of stories: from medical necessity(which nobody gets an argument from me about) to hating the pro-choice movement for trivializing women who seek abortion for not wanting a pregnancy because they just don’t want to be pregnant.

    So this got me thinking, we have a couple scenarios here. And it makes me think the following:
    - abortion, should remain legal for medical reasons but can it have restrictions placed on it stating such?

    - that better and easier access to a day after pill, other birth prevention means, and education should be taught?

    One can see, that I do not believe taking away the right of the woman defending her life, I am still against this full out unfettered anything goes access to abortion as well.

  37. wicked

    djr,

    I wonder if some of that “hatred” you saw might be because of the way some have been treated by a few pro-lifers. Then there are some who just don’t like being told what they can and can’t do by people who have no business telling them. :)

    No, I don’t think we differ much at all in our views. I’m sorry if you thought I posted on Anencephaly with you specifically in mind. I didn’t. I understand and accept your opinion on medical reasons being acceptable to you for late term abortions. I woud think most rational people would feel that way, and I’ve always found you to be more than rational. ;)

    As for the early abortions and women saying they would abort if they ever became pregnant. I have to wonder first, why they don’t want children, which is really none of my business, and second, there are “rules” that are followed by medical practitioners in some if not most states. Or at least there must be in Kansas. I know of several young women who have requested procedures to keep them from becoming pregnant again, only to be told that they’re “too young” and “might change their mind later”. 25 years old and less than 3 children, and they can’t get their tubes tied? Something is wrong here. So if that’s true in other places besides Kansas, this may be the reason for some of those early abortions. Someone out there WANTS women to have to more children than maybe women want to have. That sounds eerily like forced birth to me. Yet an 18-year-old male has no problem getting a vasectomy. Something is wrong here.

    • djr4488

      Wicked,

      I think that is what I’m trying to say, I believe that restrictions on abortion can’t exist until the reasons abortion are sought after are addressed. It is why I think that being pro-life understands this. I think these are mutually inclusive. With that said, there are pro-life groups that feign being pro-life and those groups seem to get the most noise time. Then again, I don’t want notoriety for anything I do. I don’t want to be hailed as some type of hero or worshiped or anything, I simply want to bear a very large number of crosses(oh that is a long story that it isn’t likely anybody but me is to ever know).

      That is really hard for me to say because I absolutely and unequivocally think that the unborn are human beings. As a result, it means I believe that abortion(though legal) is the killing of human beings. I say this because I think others would like to know where I come from when talking about abortion.

      I guess what I’m saying is, I would work toward both a political restriction on abortion but I’m not a fool because I also work to figure out solutions when a restriction is in place on abortion as well so that the need for abortion in that case is made as negligible as possible.

      I also think that if a woman so chose to have her tubes tied, she should be allowed(who cares about the age). Though, I guess I can see the argument from the experience of my wife, who was adamant that while pregnant with our first that would be our only child(we have three now, I’d post what may become her business website for photography in the future where you can see our children and other photography she has done for free), but I’d feel as though I’d be advertising her possible future business and I know I’ve read I shouldn’t do that.

      Now with that, I think I have wonderful run on sentences, something that I’m notoriously bad at is English.

  38. NO restrictions!

    A woman, her doctor and her god.

    PERIOD!

    There are horrors that aren’t determined until late in a pregnancy — read at shapely prose again — there is NO woman who wants an abortion or who uses a costly and uncomfortable medical procedure as birth control.

    From shapely prose: “NO ONE says, “Well, I could use a condom, but I’d rather get pregnant, endure huge hormonal changes and morning sickness for a while, then find someone who will let me pay hundreds of dollars to undergo an invasive procedure. ‘Cause that’s totally easier.”

    If you start placing restrictions on this medical procedure that is no one’s business except the woman making that decision for her body, her uterus, where will you stop in controlling women? Will you get to decide if she can make other rational decisions for herself and her family? Do you want to decide what else she may take out of her body?

    It doesn’t actually matter when life begins — a woman’s life is as important and should be as protected.

    Each person gets to make decisions about their own uterus! If you don’t have a uterus, then you probably don’t need to worry about making any of these decisions! You won’t be held accountable or responsible for another person’s decisions!

    • djr4488

      I think this is where we would disagree, and that is cool. :D

      From my point of view, I don’t see it as placing a restriction on a woman over her body, but paying respect to the right to life of the two human beings involved, and providing freedom to her as well in cases where abortion is needed. This is why I think solutions to why abortion is sought must be present first.

      I think we disagree on the importance of when life begins, as life is one of those things that is protected and guaranteed to human beings of our great country.

      And whether, I agree with what was said in it’s entirety, damn straight I’ll stand and applaud you for saying it.

      • wicked

        as life is one of those things that is protected and guaranteed to human beings of our great country.

        Do you really believe that? While it sounds good, it rings hollow. We ship our young people off to wars that never should have been begun. We have capital punishment. It took YEARS to legalize abortion, while women died.

        When a fetus is accepted as a deduction by the IRS, then a fetus is a “baby”. Over the past few years, we’ve made such a big to-do over the unborn, while children go without healthcare, good educations, homes to live in and food to eat.

        Fix the problems we have for the living first, then go see to the unborn.

      • djr4488

        wicked,

        I believe it entirely. I was against the war in Iraq, I don’t believe in the death penalty, I think what Scott Roeder was attrocious, I’d offer my own life in order to save another human being.

        I don’t say these things lightly at all. I think every single human being on this planet life is important, whether I agree with every person or not. I can’t prove it to you or anybody else, and I won’t ask anybody to believe me when I say it.

  39. wicked

    standing and applauding Fnord’s post

  40. It’s like abortions and the need for difficult decisions dropped out of the sky with Roe v Wade, and ever since it dropped out of the sky some people have decided to stick their nose where it never before and doesn’t now belong. When women’s reproductive rights are accepted (doesn’t matter whether they’re agreed to) then we can work on reducing the numbers of abortions needed and helping all women have more options available to them!

  41. lilacluvr

    Abortions have been politicized since Roe vs Wade and most of that has come from the anti-abortion groups like Operation Rescue.

    Republicans quickly jumped on the bandwagon to use abortion as a wedge issue to get their supporters to come out and vote for their party.

    As we have discussed previously, Republicans had total control of White House, Congress and 5 male Catholics on Supreme Court but yet never even attempted to overturn Roe vs Wade – not once. I have to ask myself why – so if I am asking, then why aren’t these pro-life Republicans asking the same question?

  42. djr4488

    Lilacluvr,

    I’ll answer it, and you touch on it a little bit, the latched on to it for political gain.

  43. lilacluvr

    As I have shared previously, I do not believe the government has any right to tell a woman she has to continue her pregnancy. But that government does have the responsibility to promote pro-life policies such as education, employment, health care, etc.

    If Social Conservatives profess America to be such a Christian nation, then why have we allowed one party to bankrupt us by going to war with a country that never attacked us in 9/11?

    Why have we allowed one party to bankrupt us by giving all tax breaks to those few wealthy Americans and businesses on Wall Street with no regulations?

    Thankfully, I was never presented with a difficult decision like some women have faced. I may think I would never have an abortion but until I am in those shoes faced with a difficult decision, can I really adamantly say ‘no’?

    In the end, it is not my place nor the government’s place to tell a woman ‘no’ either.

    • djr4488

      Lilac,

      I for one am first to admit I voted for Bush the second go around. I wanted him to be the one responsible to get our troops home(he sent them there) and I didn’t get what I wanted.

      Here I’ll not beat around the bush(LOL), I think that Republicans latched on to an idea because it got them votes, no more no less. But then, I think the same of all politicians. I have a rather cynical view of politics… it’s chess game with serious consequences.

  44. lilacluvr

    I think everyone here on this blog can agree that we want to see the need for abortions reduced. I would rather see the abortion debate stop being politicized as to which side will come out the winner.

    Rather, let’s work towards the common goal of reducing abortions.

    In order to work together, the two polar opposites of this debate will have to stop their yelling.

    • djr4488

      I’d like to say this again even though I think that most may not agree with my view on this, the people right here are the only set of people I’ve found that have never once disrespected my opinion.

      I’ve been shunned(by persons on both sides of the life debate), ridiculed, humiliated, humbled, spit on, yelled at, etc. These things have happened enough so to the point to make me question:
      + does God exist
      + what my own life means
      + is it even worth trying to continue any longer

      If you want to know, I say yes to 1 and 3, but I’m still seeking an answer to the second. I’ve not found it, so even if I can’t find a common ground with everybody on everything, I want to say thank you to all of you here.

  45. djr4488

    Lilac,

    You’ll hear no argument from me. I can’t vote for either Republican or Democrat because of my views on life. Republicans lie and/or can’t respect life by going to war as you said against a country who did nothing to us. Democrats I can’t because of the view on life at its beginning.

    Wicked,

    I need to expand on my statement above. I tutor parents in college courses or even pregnant mothers who are married or single to help them find ways to better themselves as a way of addressing one issue abortion is sought.

    I happen to think an expansion of covering children and adults in health care(insurance) should happen, I think better education is needed. I vote accordingly.

    I’m one person. I try and I try hard, I don’t seek attention and I do not want it. I simply believe life is precious from the moment that life is conceived to the moment of that lifes natural death.

  46. Wow, this one got deep. I like that.
    Recently I have come to the conclusion that the meaning of life is this: Life ends. It’s short. Act accordingly.

    • djr4488

      Sekan,

      And you know it was done without name calling! Unlike that other place and many other places I’ve been to. I don’t know if I can express that well enough in just words typed on a screen well enough.

      And I always thought the meaning of life was 42. ;) A short answer. LOL

  47. wicked

    djr,

    My apologies if it seemed I was attacking you personally. Not the case. I know you’re doing what you can to help those who need it.

    Because of things like the Tiller murder, the abortion issue once again becomes blazing hot. I think it’s foolish to hash and rehash the same old thing, over and over. It SHOULD all come down to not having an abortion if you’re against them. It’s all about personal responsibility, and choice comes with responsibility.

    I saw a comment on one of the news stories where a woman was blaming Dr. Tiller for her abortion. This is a woman who NEVER should have chosen to terminate a pregnancy and is obviously placing the blame for her mistake her self-hatred onto someone else. I have no doubt she was counseled, but somehow she managed to fool everyone, including herself.

    The thing is, don’t tell me to be personally responsible, then try to take my choices of how to do that away from me.

    • djr4488

      Wicked,

      I never felt you were. I mean those words sincerely. I really can not express in words alone what it meant for me to say everything I have said here and not once feel ridiculed for what it is I believe, that life is precious. I have tears in my eyes writing this, so I need to take a break, but I’ll read comments and reply a little later.

  48. Hey, Danny, we love you too, and disagreements are no reason not to treat every person with the dignity every human deserves!

    If we don’t disagree we have no reason to examine what we think, what the opinions we’ve formed are. And, if you don’t take them out and turn them around to see if they are still valid, what good are they? Plus, without disagreement there will be no need for compromise and that’s where we’ll find solutions — in the need to compromise.

    • djr4488

      Fnord, you remember my name! :D

      I agree, if people can not rationally hold a discussion a common ground has no chance of ever being found. The discussion may solidify our view point or it may open our eyes to something different.

  49. lilacluvr

    djr – You’re right…our blog group is a great place to discuss and share ideas. I think we all came from that other blog that has sank to the lowest sewer imaginable and the worst part is – those people must like it that way, or they would change their name-calling tactics.

    I believe life is precious and it is too short to sit around and fight with people who refuse to listen.

    I have enjoyed reading your viewpoints and I thank you for your participation. Just as I thank everyone on this blog for their participation.

    We may all have differing viewpoints but we can all agree that we want what is best for our country and this abortion debate is only serving to divide us further.

  50. lilacluvr

    I believe that each good deed is returned ten-fold. If our blog can discuss the divisive issues in a mature and responsible way – maybe people visiting our blog will spread the news that it can be done.

    A good seed is sown and good things will come from it.

    • djr4488

      Lilacluvr,

      I’ll agree with that. I think what had been shown on this topic is that:
      + people with differing views can rationally discuss topics
      + view points that are polar opposites can be expressed without name calling
      + and that if nothing else is brought about by it, suddenly everybody has a understanding from where the other person is coming from

      It is why I really try never to call someone a name, I think every persons view should be heard and not belittled. All of my views stem from life at every stage is important. I start there and I move from that starting place.

      I hope that I have not gotten anybody incensed with my words, and I certainly hope that no person ever felt personally attacked by my words. I only hoped that what came about is that at the end, people understood where I came from much like I understand where other comments and ideas come from.